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17Godzilla

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October 2005
It is obviously suggesting that because the chances are small, it's obviously impossible without help or a creator. That is utter ludicrousy. No matter how small the chances, there is still a chance. Just because it happened to occur doesn't make it any more impossible or any more likely that it was a creator instead.


You have it backwards... you said that there is a slim chance that the earth exists by chance. Then I'm saying that there is a slim chance there is no God. I'm not saying there is a 1/10000000 chance there is a God, there is a 99999999/10000000 chance. The odds of the earth being made from nothing out of chance are nill, and I'm saying you shouldn't bet your sould on those stats.

But I'm beginning to see your point of view now. Let me see if I have it right.

You already believe that the slim chance happened and we exist by chance. So those numbers are nothing, because we are already here.

??????


I won't even get into your arguments against those articles... this is getting to large already lol.

However, one more link for you.

www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml




Read this over perhaps too... if you have no life lol. Just some more good links.

www.christadelphian.org.uk/booklets/bprop1.html
www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html


enalia.proboards92.com/index.cgi

Lucifer

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17godzilla said:
It is obviously suggesting that because the chances are small, it's obviously impossible without help or a creator. That is utter ludicrousy. No matter how small the chances, there is still a chance. Just because it happened to occur doesn't make it any more impossible or any more likely that it was a creator instead.


You have it backwards... you said that there is a slim chance that the earth exists by chance. Then I'm saying that there is a slim chance there is no God. I'm not saying there is a 1/10000000 chance there is a God, there is a 99999999/10000000 chance. The odds of the earth being made from nothing out of chance are nill, and I'm saying you shouldn't bet your sould on those stats.


I had it right. Maybe you misread or misinterpreted what I said, but I know what you're saying.

But I'm beginning to see your point of view now. Let me see if I have it right.

You already believe that the slim chance happened and we exist by chance. So those numbers are nothing, because we are already here.


Basically. Odds only count for the unknown. We are known, we exist. In which case, it doesn't matter what the odds say, because though there is a 1/10000000000 chance of us being created before it happens, we now know that there is a 100000000000/10000000000 chance of us being created. So no matter how impossible, it may seem, we're here and that's enough evidence to support the theory that it happened by chance. If it were pre-existence and the wager was "What are the odds of a universe being created by chance or by a creator (lets assume there's both in this "preexistence" for the sake of an example), then the odds would be perfectly correct. But, since it's already happened and we don't know what did it, we have to assume that there is equal possibility without bias or judgement, only to be swayed by evidence (and I mean evidence, not "chances" or likelyhood (sp?).)

I won't even get into your arguments against those articles... this is getting to large already lol.


In my opinion, the bigger it gets, the better it gets, but that's just me. I love to debate.

However, one more link for you.

www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml




Read this over perhaps too... if you have no life lol. Just some more good links.

www.christadelphian.org.uk/booklets/bprop1.html
www.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html



I'll get around to those a little later (I have a couple things to do). However, since you're throwing links out, here's one for you:

www.godlessbastard.com

Read his articles (click the "Reality" link to enter). Mainly, the ones on the left. The rest are either love/hate mail, updates, or articles by a select few that he chose to feature on his website.


Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 1:40:21 GMT by Lucifer

Aaron

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Lucifer, you're hogging all the fun. I live for this stuff you know. :P

17godzilla said:
The odds of the earth being made from nothing out of chance are nill, and I'm saying you shouldn't bet your sould on those stats.


Do you honestly think the Earth was created so abruptly? You might as well go plant a seed and wait for a tree to sprout 5 minutes later. We are but a spec in the universe. Millions of red giants, millions of asteroids, millions of planets. Think about it. Of our solar system, Earth is the only planet capable of supporting life. Is that not chance? And odds are such an occurrence is in fact 1 in a million as you claim. But existence didn't begin with this planet. So it's very likely that this chance we call our lives took billions upon billions of years to occur.

Lucifer

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derfleurer said:
Lucifer, you're hogging all the fun. I live for this stuff you know. :P

17godzilla said:
The odds of the earth being made from nothing out of chance are nill, and I'm saying you shouldn't bet your sould on those stats.


Do you honestly think the Earth was created so abruptly? You might as well go plant a seed and wait for a tree to sprout 5 minutes later. We are but a spec in the universe. Millions of red giants, millions of asteroids, millions of planets. Think about it. Of our solar system, Earth is the only planet capable of supporting life. Is that not chance? And odds are such an occurrence is in fact 1 in a million as you claim. But existence didn't begin with this planet. So it's very likely that this chance we call our lives took billions upon billions of years to occur.


As do I. I'll be studying Theology when I go to college. ;)

Alright, nobody post. I'll be addressing entire articles from those websites Godzilla posted, so I don't want to be overlooked or to completely miss a post. Expect two posts to follow this one.

Kahless™

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how can you honestly belive this: www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml
I read it and nearly pissed myself laughing, a monkey on a bad day can see through that
"In the end, we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." Martin Luther King


Lucifer

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1. Does God exist? Throughout history, in all cultures of the world, people have been convinced there is a God.
Billions of people, who represent diverse sociological, intellectual, emotional, educational makeups...believe that there is a Creator, a God to be worshipped. Now, the fact that so many people believe something certainly doesn't make it true. But when so many people through the ages are so personally convinced that God exists, can one say with absolute confidence that they are all mistaken?

"Anthropological research has indicated that among the farthest and most remote primitive people today, there is a universal belief in God. And in the earliest histories and legends of people all around the world, the original concept was of one God, who was the Creator. An original high God seems once to have been in their consciousness even in those societies which are today polytheistic."3


More than true. However, they fail to realize that, with the exception of the occassional cult here and there, there are probably more atheistic religions now (which are merely philosophies) than there are theistic religions. Religion is meant to explain the unexplainable and to give comfort in death. Merely human nature. Religion being apart of multiple cultures over centuries is in no way proof of God. Especially since all but a few believe in the same God who's existence is trying to be proven.


2. Does God exist? The complexity of our planet points to a deliberate Designer who not only created our universe, but sustains it today.
Many examples showing God's design could be given, possibly with no end. But here are a few:

The Earth...its size is perfect. The Earth's size and corresponding gravity holds a thin layer of mostly nitrogen and oxygen gases, only extending about 50 miles above the Earth's surface. If Earth were smaller, an atmosphere would be impossible, like the planet Mercury. If Earth were larger, its atmosphere would contain free hydrogen, like Jupiter.4 Earth is the only known planet equipped with an atmosphere of the right mixture of gases to sustain plant, animal and human life.

The Earth is located the right distance from the sun. Consider the temperature swings we encounter, roughly -30 degrees to +120 degrees. If the Earth were any further away from the sun, we would all freeze. Any closer and we would burn up. Even a fractional variance in the Earth's position to the sun would make life on Earth impossible. The Earth remains this perfect distance from the sun while it rotates around the sun at a speed of nearly 67,000 mph. It is also rotating on its axis, allowing the entire surface of the Earth to be properly warmed and cooled every day.

And our moon is the perfect size and distance from the Earth for its gravitational pull. The moon creates important ocean tides and movement so ocean waters do not stagnate, and yet it restrains our massive oceans from spilling over across the continents.5


Stupid people. First of all, the Earth isn't even a perfect circle, so it's hardly a "perfect" design. Second of all, the moon is actually moving away from Earth. It used to appear 35% larger in Medieval times. Clearly, this has nothing to do with a grand creator. Especially since when it finally breaks our gravitational pull, life as we know it will cease to exist. The catastrophic reprocutions of something of that mass suddenly throwing us off balance would be immense.

And perfect temperatures? Not if we need to get darker skin to live in the sunny areas and have to skin out animals to survive in the cold. That is in no way "perfect". We've merely adapted. If God was so perfect, he wouldn't have screwed over our weather like he did.


Water...colorless, odorless and without taste, and yet no living thing can survive without it. Plants, animals and human beings consist mostly of water (about two-thirds of the human body is water). You'll see why the characteristics of water are uniquely suited to life:

It has an unusually high boiling point and freezing point. Water allows us to live in an environment of fluctuating temperature changes, while keeping our bodies a steady 98.6 degrees.

Water is a universal solvent. This property of water means that thousands of chemicals, minerals and nutrients can be carried throughout our bodies and into the smallest blood vessels.6

Water is also chemically inert. Without affecting the makeup of the substances it carries, water enables food, medicines and minerals to be absorbed and used by the body.

Water has a unique surface tension. Water in plants can therefore flow upward against gravity, bringing life-giving water and nutrients to the top of even the tallest trees.

Water freezes from the top down and floats, so fish can live in the winter.

Ninety-seven percent of the Earth's water is in the oceans. But on our Earth, there is a system designed which removes salt from the water and then distributes that water throughout the globe. Evaporation takes the ocean waters, leaving the salt, and forms clouds which are easily moved by the wind to disperse water over the land, for vegetation, animals and people. It is a system of purification and supply that sustains life on this planet, a system of recycled and reused water.7


First of all, we are here because of water, water is not here because of us. That alone destroys that entire argument, but I'll proceed to rip it apart further.

It is moving up in trees because of suction. A rock will not slide no matter how hard you suck, but a tornado can lift it with ease. IS ROCK A MIRACLE?!

Oh yeah, and fish don't live because water freezes downward. With that logic, it'd eventually reach the bottom of the lake, especially when you consider how fast the surface freezes over. If water is moving fast enough, it won't freeze. At least, not at the tempuratures it reaches around moving water. It has nothing to do with the way it freezes (downward...).

The human brain...simultaneously processes an amazing amount of information. Your brain takes in all the colors and objects you see, the temperature around you, the pressure of your feet against the floor, the sounds around you, the dryness of your mouth, even the texture of this article in your hand. Your brain registers emotional responses, thoughts and memories. At the same time your brain keeps track of the ongoing functions of your body like your breathing pattern, eyelid movement, hunger and movement of the muscles in your hands.

The human brain processes more than a million messages a second.8 Your brain weighs the importance of all this data, filtering out the relatively unimportant. This screening function is what allows you to focus and operate effectively in your world. A brain that deals with more than a million pieces of information every second, while evaluating its importance and allowing you to act on the most pertinent information...can we say mere chance brought about such an astounding organ?

When NASA launches a shuttle mission, it is assumed a monkey didn't write the plan, but intelligent and knowledgeable minds. How does one explain the existence of the human brain? Only a mind more intelligent and knowledgeable than humanity could have created the human brain.


No, not chance. Evolution. Trees live, yet have no brains. So why is it so crazy to believe that the lifeforms we evolved from were so simple, but living and had managed to evolve? Besides, this person has no conception of the brain. Does he know how it stores memories? Does he know how it even works? If not, he has no right to debate it. I'm not going to debate that a Honda Civic is better than a Dodge Ram because I don't know about them. I can weigh the pros and cons from the commercials, but unless I know how the engines work, have studied them for years, etc., I have no right to debate it. He is ignorant.


3. Does God exist? Mere "chance" is not an adequate explanation of creation.
Imagine looking at Mount Rushmore, in which the likenesses of Washington, Jefferson, Lincoln and Theodore Roosevelt are carved. Could you ever believe that it came about by chance? Given infinite time, wind, rain and chance, it is still hard to believe something like that, tied to history, was randomly formed in the side of a mountain. Common sense tells us that people planned and skillfully carved those figures.


It's a rock, not a living, breathing, adapting being. Besides, given enough time, I'm sure it could happen. There are flaws in the mountain, it isn't perfect by any means. Oh, and I've already stated before, chance is a perfectly good explaination. You can't say it's impossible because the chances are small. The fact remains that there is STILL a chance and as long as there is a chance, it CAN happen. Unlike chance, God either is or isn't. But at least we have evidence supporting our theories. There is no evidence of God and no Christian would agree that there is just a "chance" that he exists.

This article only touches on a few amazing aspects of our world: the Earth's position to the sun, some properties of water, one organ in the human body. Could any of these have come about by chance?

The distinguished astronomer Sir Frederick Hoyle showed how amino acids randomly coming together in a human cell is mathematically absurd. Sir Hoyle illustrated the weakness of "chance" with the following analogy. "What are the chances that a tornado might blow through a junkyard containing all the parts of a 747, accidentally assemble them into a plane, and leave it ready for take-off? The possibilities are so small as to be negligible even if a tornado were to blow through enough junkyards to fill the whole universe!"9


Humans are not a specific design. The chances of a tornado creating a specific plane like that is pretty impossible. But there are no instructions for how to make us. We aren't perfect. Chance did not happen to make perfect beings (I'm starting to think this guy is just arrogant and won't admit humans, let alone himself, are flawed). Also, we came about after billions of years of evolution. A tornado doesn't stay in a junkyard for even a billion seconds. Also, it is completely random. I'm not saying humans just fell out of the sky nor am I assuming the world is perfect (and no scientist would either. Yet, this person keeps thinking everything is perfect.). I'm saying this all happened and came about through time, change, and evolution. Eventually, the perfect conditions are bound to come about. Just because it took less than 1000 billion years doesn't mean it's impossible. In the span of infinite time, no matter how small the chance, that chance can happen right away or in 500 billion years. However, it does not change the odds of it happening one bit.

When one considers the intricacies of our life and universe, it is reasonable to think that an intelligent, loving Creator provided for everything we need for life. The Bible describes God as the author and sustainer of life.

4. Does God exist? Humankind's inherent sense of right and wrong cannot be biologically explained.
There arises in all of us, of any culture, universal feelings of right and wrong. Even a thief gets upset and feels wronged when someone steals from him. If someone violently grabs a child from a family and rapes that child, there is an anger and revulsion and a rage to confront that act as evil, regardless of the culture. Where did we get this sense of wrongness? How do we explain a universal law in the conscience of all people that says murder for fun is wrong?

And in areas like courage, dying for a cause, love, dignity, duty and compassion, where did these come from? If people are merely products of physical evolution, "survival of the fittest," why do we sacrifice for each other? Where did we get this inner sense of right and wrong? Our conscience can best be explained by a loving Creator who cares about the decisions and harmony of humanity.


Or, it could be nature's way of keeping us in balance. To stop us from killing to much, we gained compassion. To keep us strong and united (power in numbers, ya know), we gained loyalty, and many many more.

5. Does God exist? God not only has revealed Himself in what can be observed in nature, and in human life, but He has even more specifically shown Himself in the Bible.
God's thoughts, personality, and attitudes can only be known if God chooses to reveal them. All else would be human speculation. We are at a loss if God does not wish to be known. But God wants us to know Him and has told us in the Bible all we need to know about His character and how to relate to Him. This makes the reliability of the Bible an important consideration.

Archaeological findings continue to confirm rather than refute the accuracy of the Bible. For example, an archeological find in northern Israel in August 1993 confirmed the existence of King David, author of many of the Psalms in the Bible.10 The Dead Sea Scrolls and other archaeological discoveries continue to substantiate the historical accuracy of the Bible.

The Bible was written over a 1500-year span, by 40 different authors, in different locations and on separate continents, written in three different languages, covering diverse subject matters at different points in history.11 Yet there is an astounding consistency in its message. Throughout the entire Bible the same message appears:
God created the world we live in, and created us specifically to have a relationship with Him.
He deeply loves us.
We have sinned and are under God's judgment, in need of His forgiveness.
God provided a way for our sins to be forgiven.
He asks us to receive His forgiveness and have a relationship with Him that will last eternally.
Along with this central script, the Bible specifically reveals God's character. Psalm 145 is a typical summary of God's personality, thoughts and feelings toward us. If you want to know God, here He is.

6. Does God exist? Unlike any other revelation of God, Jesus Christ is the clearest, most specific picture of God.
Why Jesus? Look throughout the major world religions and you'll find that Buddha, Muhammad, Confucius and Moses all identified themselves as teachers or prophets. None of them ever claimed to be equal to God. Surprisingly, Jesus did. That is what sets Jesus apart from all the others. He said God exists and you're looking at Him. Though He talked about His Father in heaven, it was not from the position of separation, but of very close union, unique to all humankind. Jesus said that anyone who had seen Him had seen the Father, anyone who believed in Him, believed in the Father.

He said, "I am the light of the world, he who follows me will not walk in darkness, but will have the light of life."12 He claimed attributes belonging only to God: to be able to forgive people of their sin, free them from habits of sin, give people a more abundant life and give them eternal life in heaven. Unlike other teachers who focused people on their words, Jesus pointed people to himself. He did not say, "follow my words and you will find truth." He said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me."13

What proof did Jesus give for claiming to be divine? He did what people can't do. Jesus performed miracles. He healed people...blind, crippled, deaf, even raised a couple of people from the dead. He had power over objects...created food out of thin air, enough to feed crowds of several thousand people. He performed miracles over nature...walked on top of a lake, commanding a raging storm to stop for some friends. People everywhere followed Jesus, because He constantly met their needs, doing the miraculous. He said if you do not want to believe what I'm telling you, you should at least believe in me based on the miracles you're seeing.14


I'ma lump these two together.

First of all, the only "proof" of Jesus' miracles is the Bible. You cannot defend the Bible with examples of "proof" that only occur in said Bible. That is just dumb, no matter who you are.

Second of all, there was another man during Jesus' time named Apalonius (sp?). He, too, claimed to cure the sick, walk through walls, and other impossible feats. What makes the two different? Popularity. Jesus wasn't the only one, so that's hardly proof of anything (though I fail to see what point they are trying to prove by saying Jesus (we're still unsure if he's even factual) was like God, anyway).

The most conclusive proof that Jesus is equal to God was Jesus' most closely scrutinized miracle - His own resurrection from the dead. Jesus said that three days after His burial He would come back to life. On the third day after His crucifixion, the almost two-ton boulder in front of His tomb was catapulted up a slope.16 The guard of well-trained Roman soldiers saw a blinding light and an angel. The tomb was empty, except for the burial clothes that had been wrapped around Jesus' body. Over the years, legal, historical and logical analysis has been applied to Jesus' resurrection and the most feasible conclusion still is that Jesus rose from the dead.


No proof of this whatsoever. That means that it is not proof of him being equal to God (and is the exact reason why we don't know for sure if he really existed).


Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 2:35:25 GMT by Lucifer

17Godzilla

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kahless said:
how can you honestly belive this: www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml
I read it and nearly pissed myself laughing, a monkey on a bad day can see through that


You gotta back up what you say. That website is hard facts.

And you weren't supposed to post yet - we're waiting for lucifer.

And I'll post a big reply tomorrow to everything. So make sure to give me lots =].


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Lucifer

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17godzilla said:
kahless said:
how can you honestly belive this: www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml
I read it and nearly pissed myself laughing, a monkey on a bad day can see through that


You gotta back up what you say. That website is hard facts.

And you weren't supposed to post yet - we're waiting for lucifer.

And I'll post a big reply tomorrow to everything. So make sure to give me lots =].



Actually, I can debunk just about everything on that website as well. I just really don't feel like it after that long post. :P

Aaron

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Damn Lucifer...I don't even get a chance to talk with you around. :P

I just hope Chris doesn't lock this. It's a debate thus far and there has been no "attacking" so it wouldn't be sensible to but...

Edit: If it makes you feel better 17, i'll review the entire website personally (whenever I have the energy :P).




Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 2:53:45 GMT by Aaron

Kahless™

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Ill sum it up, and dont debate me, wait for Luci, hes better than I am


That entier website is bassed on one thing, if the bible is true then it is hard facts and if thats true then the website is right, theyre using the item theyre trying to prove as proof. And on top of everything, they are tryingto prove theyre religion, but they use other religions as proof, yet christianity says all other religions are false.
"In the end, we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." Martin Luther King


Lucifer

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derfleurer said:
Damn Lucifer...I don't even get a chance to talk with you around. :P

I just hope Chris doesn't lock this. It's a debate thus far and there has been no "attacking" so it wouldn't be sensible to but...

Edit: If it makes you feel better 17, i'll review the entire website personally (whenever I have the energy :P).



Naw, I'll eat Chris if he does. What's the point of an article if it can't be discussed and debated?

kahless said:
That entier website is bassed on one thing, if the bible is true then it is hard facts and if thats true then the website is right, theyre using the item theyre trying to prove as proof. And on top of everything, they are tryingto prove theyre religion, but they use other religions as proof, yet christianity says all other religions are false.


That's generally a reoccuring theme on websites that claim they've "proven" the Bible.


One thing I want to touch on really quick. If you read the website I posted, you'll probably know this already. If not, I'll tell you.

Christians always pull their trump card when backed into a corner: it's all about Faith. However, faith is believing in the unknown, unprovable. You cannot have Faith in God if you know he exists. Christians say that the word of God is true and law, but it is impossible to have Faith if that is the case. There is no such thing as Faith and blind Faith. ALL Faith is blind. If you have proof supporting you, it's not Faith.


Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 2:59:40 GMT by Lucifer

Aaron

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Edit:

You cannot have Faith in God if you know he exists. Christians say that the word of God is true and law, but it is impossible to have Faith if that is the case.


I do believe I mentioned that in the very article as well. ;)





Proving whether something is true or not is called apologetics. This word is derived from the Greek word “apologia,” which means “to defend.” The entire Clarifying Christianity site is filled with apologetics—proofs and explanations for many Christian-related issues. The focus of this page is the proof supporting the accuracy of the Bible. After all, if the Bible is not true or if it is filled with errors, Christianity would only be a “blind faith”—something people believe without any evidence to support it.


If it weren't "blind" it wouldn't be faith would it?

faith - belief that is not based on proof

However, Christianity is not a blind faith. It is the only religion that can prove itself, and a main source of that proof is the Bible. Although it is becoming less common, there are still people who tell others that they follow Christianity “because it feels right” (or use wording like that). This is unfortunate, since there is a lot of evidence supporting Christianity. The existence of all that evidence is one reason we started this site. We want people to learn about the solid evidence that supports their faith, and have a place that collected that evidence so they can show it to others.


In this very paragraph the author states that people should follow the faith because of facts and not because "it feels right". :o Seems a little backwards doesn't it?

One of the strongest arguments for the accuracy of the Bible is its 100% accuracy in predicting the future. These future predictions are called “prophecies.” The Old Testament was written between approximately 1450 BC and 430 BC. During that time, many predictions of the future were recorded in the Bible by God’s prophets. Of the events that were to have taken place by now, every one happened just the way they predicted it would. No other “sacred writing” has such perfectly accurate predictions of the future.


Ok...so the bible is accurate because the bible says that the bible will say [blank]. Yeah...

These miracles and others were done many times in front of thousands of witnesses for three years. About 30 AD, Jesus was crucified (a prophecy) and died (a prophecy). Three days later he rose from the dead (another prophecy), after which He was seen by over 500 witnesses.


Witnesses according to what? The bible?




You know what...why don't I just quote the entire article? Every "proof" they have comes from the bible. So they're using the bible to prove that the bible is true? To put it simply, their entire argument is: "The bible is right because it says it is."




Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 3:09:50 GMT by Aaron

Kahless™

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pretty much what I said cept you backed it up better
"In the end, we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." Martin Luther King


17Godzilla

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Okay... lets get this started. =]

lucifer said:


If you have time read this

www.proofgodexists.org/anthropic_principle.htm

Or go to www.proofgodexists.org and pick your own articles.


The first one has absolutely no credibility for the following opening quote:

"The Anthropic Principles point out that there are over one hundred variables to this Universe, that would have made life as we know it impossible, if they were even slightly different. Either this Universe had to be finely tuned to the conditions that make the evolution of life possible, or there have to be googolplexes of Universes."

It is obviously suggesting that because the chances are small, it's obviously impossible without help or a creator. That is utter ludicrousy. No matter how small the chances, there is still a chance. Just because it happened to occur doesn't make it any more impossible or any more likely that it was a creator instead.


But it didn't just happen to occur. My perspective is now, and seeing that we are here, and that the odds are slim that we exist by chance, its more likely a creator made us.

Look from now, not from before the earth, but right now. We can say that the chances of the earth being created by chance are 0.00001% or 1/9999999999, or whatever it is. Now, other then by happening by chance, what is the other option? All that is left is that some sort higher being made the Universe, and therefor its odds are infinitely more likely.

And if my last point doesn't make any sense, just looking at the earth with the right perspective should show you. Doesn't it just plain make more sense if we were made by a creator? It just seems.... obvious to me. But, yes, you could say the same.

lucifer said:


Edit: You said pick articles, so I'll pick a few.

Click: There is scientific explainations for these occurences. There is nothing magical, spiritual, or otherwise about them.

Click: It works because people believe it works. It has nothing to do with prayer. Besides, prayer is asking for a definitive outcome, not for "wounds to heal faster". They ask for them to go away completely, if anything. It's junk science.

Click: The supposed "best argument at all" is that because Heaven is paradise, it must mean that animals live forever in Heaven and God exists. You can't say "[Blank 1] exists because the book that says it does says [blank 2], so that must mean this has to happen to make it true."


You think all facts and everything can just be explained away by "chance".

I've seen people healed, I've felt the holy spirit, I've heard people speak in tongues, I've felt God's touch and whisper. Does all of this make me insane? Is it just my brain playing tricks with me? Well who created our brains?

"It was all just chance" you say. I just happened to feel and overwhelming sense of joy and peace while I was praying. That kid just someone healed by chance the moment he was touched.

And saying it was all just odds doesn't disprove it either, only says that there is REALLY REALLY REALLY small chance that no God exists.



I'll get around to those a little later (I have a couple things to do). However, since you're throwing links out, here's one for you:

www.godlessbastard.com

Read his articles (click the "Reality" link to enter). Mainly, the ones on the left. The rest are either love/hate mail, updates, or articles by a select few that he chose to feature on his website.


I read 3 of his articles. No real facts, just picking apart Christians.

And as for all this nonsense about Christians claiming Christianity as facts and then saying its faith. Let make an analogy.

I want to sit in a chair, but I'm not sure if it will hold me. Now, I am told lots of facts about the chair. The chair is made of metal, its very strong. Other's have sat in the chair and it held them. There are lots of proofs to that this chair will hold me. Some think that it is enough proof and they call it a fact that the chair will hold them. They are sure. But to actually sit down and test if the chair will hold me takes faith, even though there is lots of evidence, I still need faith it will hold me. Even if I am 100% sure, there is still faith involved.

But I do admit he is a very good author and his articles made me think...... more then I will say.


Do you honestly think the Earth was created so abruptly? You might as well go plant a seed and wait for a tree to sprout 5 minutes later. We are but a spec in the universe. Millions of red giants, millions of asteroids, millions of planets. Think about it. Of our solar system, Earth is the only planet capable of supporting life. Is that not chance? And odds are such an occurrence is in fact 1 in a million as you claim. But existence didn't begin with this planet. So it's very likely that this chance we call our lives took billions upon billions of years to occur.


Yes I do, about 6020 years is what I believe. There is no "real" evidence about the age of the earth. Scientists say.. "oh this rock is 10 billion years old because its from the [blank] age". The "ages" are used to prove themselves, just like you guys keep bringing up about the bible.

I don't know and incredible amount about science, but I have read lots and I do know that most evolution and the big bang and other creation theories have hardly any evidence, nothing compared to the bible in my opinion.





I'm tired of writing now, will respond to Lucifer's mockery of the website I gave him later.





Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 21:24:25 GMT by 17Godzilla
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Aaron

Aaron Avatar
Bad Wolf

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Dedicated Studio Member

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November 2006
Look from now, not from before the earth, but right now. We can say that the chances of the earth being created by chance are 0.00001% or 1/9999999999, or whatever it is. Now, other then by happening by chance, what is the other option? All that is left is that some sort higher being made the Universe, and therefor its odds are infinitely more likely.


I fail to see any logic in that paragraph.

Yes I do, about 6020 years is what I believe. There is no "real" evidence about the age of the earth. Scientists say.. "oh this rock is 10 billion years old because its from the [blank] age". The "ages" are used to prove themselves, just like you guys keep bringing up about the bible.


It's called carbon-dating.

But to actually sit down and test if the chair will hold me takes faith, even though there is lots of evidence, I still need faith it will hold me. Even if I am 100% sure, there is still faith involved.


Again, faith isn't hope. Faith is believing a fact to be true without evidence. In addition it makes no sense to say, "and test if the chair will hold me". That is a matter of exactly that. Testing. Not faith.

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