|
You have it backwards... you said that there is a slim chance that the earth exists by chance. Then I'm saying that there is a slim chance there is no God. I'm not saying there is a 1/10000000 chance there is a God, there is a 99999999/10000000 chance. The odds of the earth being made from nothing out of chance are nill, and I'm saying you shouldn't bet your sould on those stats. But I'm beginning to see your point of view now. Let me see if I have it right. You already believe that the slim chance happened and we exist by chance. So those numbers are nothing, because we are already here. I won't even get into your arguments against those articles... this is getting to large already lol. However, one more link for you. www.clarifyingchristianity.com/b_proof.shtml
Read this over perhaps too... if you have no life lol. Just some more good links. www.christadelphian.org.uk/booklets/bprop1.htmlwww.everystudent.com/features/isthere.html
|
enalia.proboards92.com/index.cgi
|
|
|
|
You have it backwards... you said that there is a slim chance that the earth exists by chance. Then I'm saying that there is a slim chance there is no God. I'm not saying there is a 1/10000000 chance there is a God, there is a 99999999/10000000 chance. The odds of the earth being made from nothing out of chance are nill, and I'm saying you shouldn't bet your sould on those stats. I had it right. Maybe you misread or misinterpreted what I said, but I know what you're saying. Basically. Odds only count for the unknown. We are known, we exist. In which case, it doesn't matter what the odds say, because though there is a 1/10000000000 chance of us being created before it happens, we now know that there is a 100000000000/10000000000 chance of us being created. So no matter how impossible, it may seem, we're here and that's enough evidence to support the theory that it happened by chance. If it were pre-existence and the wager was "What are the odds of a universe being created by chance or by a creator (lets assume there's both in this "preexistence" for the sake of an example), then the odds would be perfectly correct. But, since it's already happened and we don't know what did it, we have to assume that there is equal possibility without bias or judgement, only to be swayed by evidence (and I mean evidence, not "chances" or likelyhood (sp?).) In my opinion, the bigger it gets, the better it gets, but that's just me. I love to debate. I'll get around to those a little later (I have a couple things to do). However, since you're throwing links out, here's one for you: www.godlessbastard.comRead his articles (click the "Reality" link to enter). Mainly, the ones on the left. The rest are either love/hate mail, updates, or articles by a select few that he chose to feature on his website.
Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 1:40:21 GMT by Lucifer
|
|
|
|
Lucifer, you're hogging all the fun. I live for this stuff you know. The odds of the earth being made from nothing out of chance are nill, and I'm saying you shouldn't bet your sould on those stats. Do you honestly think the Earth was created so abruptly? You might as well go plant a seed and wait for a tree to sprout 5 minutes later. We are but a spec in the universe. Millions of red giants, millions of asteroids, millions of planets. Think about it. Of our solar system, Earth is the only planet capable of supporting life. Is that not chance? And odds are such an occurrence is in fact 1 in a million as you claim. But existence didn't begin with this planet. So it's very likely that this chance we call our lives took billions upon billions of years to occur.
|
|
|
|
Lucifer, you're hogging all the fun. I live for this stuff you know. The odds of the earth being made from nothing out of chance are nill, and I'm saying you shouldn't bet your sould on those stats. Do you honestly think the Earth was created so abruptly? You might as well go plant a seed and wait for a tree to sprout 5 minutes later. We are but a spec in the universe. Millions of red giants, millions of asteroids, millions of planets. Think about it. Of our solar system, Earth is the only planet capable of supporting life. Is that not chance? And odds are such an occurrence is in fact 1 in a million as you claim. But existence didn't begin with this planet. So it's very likely that this chance we call our lives took billions upon billions of years to occur. As do I. I'll be studying Theology when I go to college. Alright, nobody post. I'll be addressing entire articles from those websites Godzilla posted, so I don't want to be overlooked or to completely miss a post. Expect two posts to follow this one.
|
|
|
|
|
"In the end, we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
More than true. However, they fail to realize that, with the exception of the occassional cult here and there, there are probably more atheistic religions now (which are merely philosophies) than there are theistic religions. Religion is meant to explain the unexplainable and to give comfort in death. Merely human nature. Religion being apart of multiple cultures over centuries is in no way proof of God. Especially since all but a few believe in the same God who's existence is trying to be proven. Stupid people. First of all, the Earth isn't even a perfect circle, so it's hardly a "perfect" design. Second of all, the moon is actually moving away from Earth. It used to appear 35% larger in Medieval times. Clearly, this has nothing to do with a grand creator. Especially since when it finally breaks our gravitational pull, life as we know it will cease to exist. The catastrophic reprocutions of something of that mass suddenly throwing us off balance would be immense. And perfect temperatures? Not if we need to get darker skin to live in the sunny areas and have to skin out animals to survive in the cold. That is in no way "perfect". We've merely adapted. If God was so perfect, he wouldn't have screwed over our weather like he did. First of all, we are here because of water, water is not here because of us. That alone destroys that entire argument, but I'll proceed to rip it apart further. It is moving up in trees because of suction. A rock will not slide no matter how hard you suck, but a tornado can lift it with ease. IS ROCK A MIRACLE?! Oh yeah, and fish don't live because water freezes downward. With that logic, it'd eventually reach the bottom of the lake, especially when you consider how fast the surface freezes over. If water is moving fast enough, it won't freeze. At least, not at the tempuratures it reaches around moving water. It has nothing to do with the way it freezes (downward...). No, not chance. Evolution. Trees live, yet have no brains. So why is it so crazy to believe that the lifeforms we evolved from were so simple, but living and had managed to evolve? Besides, this person has no conception of the brain. Does he know how it stores memories? Does he know how it even works? If not, he has no right to debate it. I'm not going to debate that a Honda Civic is better than a Dodge Ram because I don't know about them. I can weigh the pros and cons from the commercials, but unless I know how the engines work, have studied them for years, etc., I have no right to debate it. He is ignorant. It's a rock, not a living, breathing, adapting being. Besides, given enough time, I'm sure it could happen. There are flaws in the mountain, it isn't perfect by any means. Oh, and I've already stated before, chance is a perfectly good explaination. You can't say it's impossible because the chances are small. The fact remains that there is STILL a chance and as long as there is a chance, it CAN happen. Unlike chance, God either is or isn't. But at least we have evidence supporting our theories. There is no evidence of God and no Christian would agree that there is just a "chance" that he exists. Humans are not a specific design. The chances of a tornado creating a specific plane like that is pretty impossible. But there are no instructions for how to make us. We aren't perfect. Chance did not happen to make perfect beings (I'm starting to think this guy is just arrogant and won't admit humans, let alone himself, are flawed). Also, we came about after billions of years of evolution. A tornado doesn't stay in a junkyard for even a billion seconds. Also, it is completely random. I'm not saying humans just fell out of the sky nor am I assuming the world is perfect (and no scientist would either. Yet, this person keeps thinking everything is perfect.). I'm saying this all happened and came about through time, change, and evolution. Eventually, the perfect conditions are bound to come about. Just because it took less than 1000 billion years doesn't mean it's impossible. In the span of infinite time, no matter how small the chance, that chance can happen right away or in 500 billion years. However, it does not change the odds of it happening one bit. Or, it could be nature's way of keeping us in balance. To stop us from killing to much, we gained compassion. To keep us strong and united (power in numbers, ya know), we gained loyalty, and many many more. I'ma lump these two together. First of all, the only "proof" of Jesus' miracles is the Bible. You cannot defend the Bible with examples of "proof" that only occur in said Bible. That is just dumb, no matter who you are. Second of all, there was another man during Jesus' time named Apalonius (sp?). He, too, claimed to cure the sick, walk through walls, and other impossible feats. What makes the two different? Popularity. Jesus wasn't the only one, so that's hardly proof of anything (though I fail to see what point they are trying to prove by saying Jesus (we're still unsure if he's even factual) was like God, anyway). No proof of this whatsoever. That means that it is not proof of him being equal to God (and is the exact reason why we don't know for sure if he really existed).
Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 2:35:25 GMT by Lucifer
|
|
|
|
You gotta back up what you say. That website is hard facts. And you weren't supposed to post yet - we're waiting for lucifer. And I'll post a big reply tomorrow to everything. So make sure to give me lots =].
|
enalia.proboards92.com/index.cgi
|
|
|
|
You gotta back up what you say. That website is hard facts. And you weren't supposed to post yet - we're waiting for lucifer. And I'll post a big reply tomorrow to everything. So make sure to give me lots =]. Actually, I can debunk just about everything on that website as well. I just really don't feel like it after that long post.
|
|
|
|
Damn Lucifer...I don't even get a chance to talk with you around. I just hope Chris doesn't lock this. It's a debate thus far and there has been no "attacking" so it wouldn't be sensible to but... Edit: If it makes you feel better 17, i'll review the entire website personally (whenever I have the energy ).
Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 2:53:45 GMT by Aaron
|
|
|
|
Ill sum it up, and dont debate me, wait for Luci, hes better than I am
That entier website is bassed on one thing, if the bible is true then it is hard facts and if thats true then the website is right, theyre using the item theyre trying to prove as proof. And on top of everything, they are tryingto prove theyre religion, but they use other religions as proof, yet christianity says all other religions are false.
|
"In the end, we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
Damn Lucifer...I don't even get a chance to talk with you around. I just hope Chris doesn't lock this. It's a debate thus far and there has been no "attacking" so it wouldn't be sensible to but... Edit: If it makes you feel better 17, i'll review the entire website personally (whenever I have the energy ). Naw, I'll eat Chris if he does. What's the point of an article if it can't be discussed and debated? That entier website is bassed on one thing, if the bible is true then it is hard facts and if thats true then the website is right, theyre using the item theyre trying to prove as proof. And on top of everything, they are tryingto prove theyre religion, but they use other religions as proof, yet christianity says all other religions are false. That's generally a reoccuring theme on websites that claim they've "proven" the Bible.
One thing I want to touch on really quick. If you read the website I posted, you'll probably know this already. If not, I'll tell you. Christians always pull their trump card when backed into a corner: it's all about Faith. However, faith is believing in the unknown, unprovable. You cannot have Faith in God if you know he exists. Christians say that the word of God is true and law, but it is impossible to have Faith if that is the case. There is no such thing as Faith and blind Faith. ALL Faith is blind. If you have proof supporting you, it's not Faith.
Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 2:59:40 GMT by Lucifer
|
|
|
|
Edit: I do believe I mentioned that in the very article as well.
If it weren't "blind" it wouldn't be faith would it? faith - belief that is not based on proof In this very paragraph the author states that people should follow the faith because of facts and not because "it feels right". Seems a little backwards doesn't it? Ok...so the bible is accurate because the bible says that the bible will say [blank]. Yeah... Witnesses according to what? The bible?
You know what...why don't I just quote the entire article? Every "proof" they have comes from the bible. So they're using the bible to prove that the bible is true? To put it simply, their entire argument is: "The bible is right because it says it is."
Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 3:09:50 GMT by Aaron
|
|
|
|
pretty much what I said cept you backed it up better
|
"In the end, we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." Martin Luther King
|
|
|
|
Okay... lets get this started. =] The first one has absolutely no credibility for the following opening quote: "The Anthropic Principles point out that there are over one hundred variables to this Universe, that would have made life as we know it impossible, if they were even slightly different. Either this Universe had to be finely tuned to the conditions that make the evolution of life possible, or there have to be googolplexes of Universes."It is obviously suggesting that because the chances are small, it's obviously impossible without help or a creator. That is utter ludicrousy. No matter how small the chances, there is still a chance. Just because it happened to occur doesn't make it any more impossible or any more likely that it was a creator instead. But it didn't just happen to occur. My perspective is now, and seeing that we are here, and that the odds are slim that we exist by chance, its more likely a creator made us. Look from now, not from before the earth, but right now. We can say that the chances of the earth being created by chance are 0.00001% or 1/9999999999, or whatever it is. Now, other then by happening by chance, what is the other option? All that is left is that some sort higher being made the Universe, and therefor its odds are infinitely more likely. And if my last point doesn't make any sense, just looking at the earth with the right perspective should show you. Doesn't it just plain make more sense if we were made by a creator? It just seems.... obvious to me. But, yes, you could say the same. Edit: You said pick articles, so I'll pick a few. Click: There is scientific explainations for these occurences. There is nothing magical, spiritual, or otherwise about them. Click: It works because people believe it works. It has nothing to do with prayer. Besides, prayer is asking for a definitive outcome, not for "wounds to heal faster". They ask for them to go away completely, if anything. It's junk science. Click: The supposed "best argument at all" is that because Heaven is paradise, it must mean that animals live forever in Heaven and God exists. You can't say "[Blank 1] exists because the book that says it does says [blank 2], so that must mean this has to happen to make it true." You think all facts and everything can just be explained away by "chance". I've seen people healed, I've felt the holy spirit, I've heard people speak in tongues, I've felt God's touch and whisper. Does all of this make me insane? Is it just my brain playing tricks with me? Well who created our brains? "It was all just chance" you say. I just happened to feel and overwhelming sense of joy and peace while I was praying. That kid just someone healed by chance the moment he was touched. And saying it was all just odds doesn't disprove it either, only says that there is REALLY REALLY REALLY small chance that no God exists. I read 3 of his articles. No real facts, just picking apart Christians. And as for all this nonsense about Christians claiming Christianity as facts and then saying its faith. Let make an analogy. I want to sit in a chair, but I'm not sure if it will hold me. Now, I am told lots of facts about the chair. The chair is made of metal, its very strong. Other's have sat in the chair and it held them. There are lots of proofs to that this chair will hold me. Some think that it is enough proof and they call it a fact that the chair will hold them. They are sure. But to actually sit down and test if the chair will hold me takes faith, even though there is lots of evidence, I still need faith it will hold me. Even if I am 100% sure, there is still faith involved. But I do admit he is a very good author and his articles made me think...... more then I will say. Yes I do, about 6020 years is what I believe. There is no "real" evidence about the age of the earth. Scientists say.. "oh this rock is 10 billion years old because its from the [blank] age". The "ages" are used to prove themselves, just like you guys keep bringing up about the bible. I don't know and incredible amount about science, but I have read lots and I do know that most evolution and the big bang and other creation theories have hardly any evidence, nothing compared to the bible in my opinion.
I'm tired of writing now, will respond to Lucifer's mockery of the website I gave him later.
Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 21:24:25 GMT by 17Godzilla
|
enalia.proboards92.com/index.cgi
|
|
|
|
I fail to see any logic in that paragraph.
It's called carbon-dating.
Again, faith isn't hope. Faith is believing a fact to be true without evidence. In addition it makes no sense to say, "and test if the chair will hold me". That is a matter of exactly that. Testing. Not faith.
|
|
|