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Lucifer

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August 2005
17godzilla said:
Okay... lets get this started. =]

lucifer said:




The first one has absolutely no credibility for the following opening quote:

"The Anthropic Principles point out that there are over one hundred variables to this Universe, that would have made life as we know it impossible, if they were even slightly different. Either this Universe had to be finely tuned to the conditions that make the evolution of life possible, or there have to be googolplexes of Universes."

It is obviously suggesting that because the chances are small, it's obviously impossible without help or a creator. That is utter ludicrousy. No matter how small the chances, there is still a chance. Just because it happened to occur doesn't make it any more impossible or any more likely that it was a creator instead.


But it didn't just happen to occur. My perspective is now, and seeing that we are here, and that the odds are slim that we exist by chance, its more likely a creator made us.

Look from now, not from before the earth, but right now. We can say that the chances of the earth being created by chance are 0.00001% or 1/9999999999, or whatever it is. Now, other then by happening by chance, what is the other option? All that is left is that some sort higher being made the Universe, and therefor its odds are infinitely more likely.

And if my last point doesn't make any sense, just looking at the earth with the right perspective should show you. Doesn't it just plain make more sense if we were made by a creator? It just seems.... obvious to me. But, yes, you could say the same.


Okay, you obviously don't get the concept of probability. It doesn't matter how high the probability of one outcome is because the other can still happen. Being that science does actually have proof, which religion does not, it makes it's theories much more believable. Besides, what are the odds that a grand creator did it? Who says it wasn't aliens? Just because Option A is irrational, it doesn't make Option B any more probable. There are an infinite amount of ways it could've happened, yet you're assuming it's just God or the Big Bang.

You think all facts and everything can just be explained away by "chance".

I've seen people healed, I've felt the holy spirit, I've heard people speak in tongues, I've felt God's touch and whisper. Does all of this make me insane? Is it just my brain playing tricks with me? Well who created our brains?

"It was all just chance" you say. I just happened to feel and overwhelming sense of joy and peace while I was praying. That kid just someone healed by chance the moment he was touched.

And saying it was all just odds doesn't disprove it either, only says that there is REALLY REALLY REALLY small chance that no God exists.


Actually, there is an EXTREMELY high probability that it's by chance. EVERY star has a few planets. There are a few billion stars (hell, probably more than a few) in our galaxy alone. There are trillions of galaxies. What are the odds that there ISN'T going to be life on one or more of those planets purely by chance? As opposed to some impossible (yes, impossible) being that created us. Basically, there is about 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,00010 chances for life to happen purely by accident.

Also, I am most certain that you didn't literally hear God or feel the Holy Spirit. Second of all, you don't know people were healed. Those Evangelical assholes are like fortune tellers. They get information from people and make it look good for TV (or whoever they're showing). There is no proof or documentation of actual healing. But, if you want to argue that, here's a good article to make you hate people who claim Jesus can heal people: Click.

Oh yeah, our brains were not just "created". They did that dirty 7 letter word: Evolved.

I read 3 of his articles. No real facts, just picking apart Christians.

And as for all this nonsense about Christians claiming Christianity as facts and then saying its faith. Let make an analogy.

I want to sit in a chair, but I'm not sure if it will hold me. Now, I am told lots of facts about the chair. The chair is made of metal, its very strong. Other's have sat in the chair and it held them. There are lots of proofs to that this chair will hold me. Some think that it is enough proof and they call it a fact that the chair will hold them. They are sure. But to actually sit down and test if the chair will hold me takes faith, even though there is lots of evidence, I still need faith it will hold me. Even if I am 100% sure, there is still faith involved.

But I do admit he is a very good author and his articles made me think...... more then I will say.


Aaron explained that bit clearly. And Andy (the "Godless Bastard") does provide "facts" and on one of his pages, posts some questions and answers he recieved from CARM (I forget what it stands for, but it's a Christian website) which are straight out of the Bible.

I don't know and incredible amount about science, but I have read lots and I do know that most evolution and the big bang and other creation theories have hardly any evidence, nothing compared to the bible in my opinion.


Hmm...I'd like to see some proof from the Bible. You know, more than just "faith".


Last Edit: Sept 7, 2006 23:37:21 GMT by Lucifer

17Godzilla

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I may not be good at writing out my ideas, but I know proof when I see it.

The Bible was written over a 1500-year span, by 40 different authors, in different locations and on separate continents, written in three different languages, covering diverse subject matters at different points in history. Yet there is an astounding consistency in its message.

It never contradicts itself, explain that.





www.quiknet.com/dfrench/evidence/prophecy.htm
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Kahless™

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October 2005
Well I dunno but mabey if they read it first they wont contradict it, and perhapse they made it up as they added to it, who says that when I say god told me this, that it is false? how can you disprove me? same works for them
"In the end, we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." Martin Luther King


Lucifer

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August 2005
17godzilla said:
I may not be good at writing out my ideas, but I know proof when I see it.

The Bible was written over a 1500-year span, by 40 different authors, in different locations and on separate continents, written in three different languages, covering diverse subject matters at different points in history. Yet there is an astounding consistency in its message.

It never contradicts itself, explain that.


That's news to me. Since when doesn't it contradict itself? It does on the first page! TWO DIFFERENT Creation stories which conflict. Right next to each other.

To illustrate this: If we take 100 trillion silver dollars and lay them on the face of Texas, they would be two feet deep. Now we mark one of these silver dollars and stir the whole mass thoroughly --- all over the state. Now blindfold a man and let him travel as far as he wishes, but he must pick only one silver dollar. What chance would he have of picking the right one? The same chance that the prophets would have of writing just eight of these prophecies and having them all come true for any one man --- if they had written them without God's inspiration!



The chance of any one man fulfilling all of 48 prophecies is one in 10 to the 157 power. The electron is about as small an object as we can imagine. if we had a cubic inch of these electrons and tried to count them, it would take us (at 250 per minute) 19,000 time 19,000 time 19,000 years to count them. Now mark one of them, and thoroughly stir it into the whole mass. What chance does our blindfolded man have of finding the right electron? --- The same chance as one man of fulfilling 48 of the prophecies about Christ, without being the Son of God!


Wrong. You cannot judge the probability for success in a matter like this. Depending on how exact or vague the prophecy is can DRASTICALLY change the odds. Being that there is no scale or form of measurement for prophecies, we can conclude that the above quotes and thus, the entire site, is based off of junk science. Junk science is, by the way, "science" which has been "proven", but through innefective methods and generally not very true to actual scientific methods.

Also, it's been stated about 5 times now. It is not proof. The Bible is prophesizing events which occur only in the Bible.


Last Edit: Sept 8, 2006 3:13:39 GMT by Lucifer

17Godzilla

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That's news to me. Since when doesn't it contradict itself? It does on the first page! TWO DIFFERENT Creation stories which conflict. Right next to each other.


I don't recall two different creation stories on the first page of the bible?!!!?
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Lucifer

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August 2005
17godzilla said:
That's news to me. Since when doesn't it contradict itself? It does on the first page! TWO DIFFERENT Creation stories which conflict. Right next to each other.


I don't recall two different creation stories on the first page of the bible?!!!?


It may be the first few pages, but it blatantly states "First Story of Creation" and "Second Story of Creation". They conflict each other.

17Godzilla

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October 2005
bibleresources.bible.com/passagesearch.php

Could I have a quote? I've read Genesis, and there is not two different stories.
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Lucifer

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August 2005
Too lazy for quotes. Genesis isn't long, I'm sure you can find what I'm referring to.

Story 1: God created man and woman in his image.
Story 2: God created Adam, made Eden, did some stuff, then decided he was lonely and created Eve.

There is no mention of Eden in the first story and the second story places their creation at separate times rather than at the same time as it is in the first.

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lucifer said:
Too lazy for quotes. Genesis isn't long, I'm sure you can find what I'm referring to.

Story 1: God created man and woman in his image.
Story 2: God created Adam, made Eden, did some stuff, then decided he was lonely and created Eve.

There is no mention of Eden in the first story and the second story places their creation at separate times rather than at the same time as it is in the first.

Wrong again. The old testament doesn't contradict itself. I've studied it for eight years. The stories you just said, the second one isn't even from the bible.

It goes like this: God created Adam from the earth and Eve in his image by sculpting Eve from Adam's limb. And "Eden" is the garden, hence "Garden of Eden". Adam and Eve were tricked by the serpent to eat the fruit of knowledge (known as the apple now) and were banished from Eden and forced to live on their own. The serpent lost its speech ability as well as its legs and arms as punishment from God as well.

Adam and Eve had three sons (and maybe a daughter, I kinda forgot that part O_o): Cain, Abel, and Seth. Cain kills Abel and is forced to walk the Earth bearing a scar on his forehead to indicate his shame. We are descended from Seth, the third brother, who is almost not talked about at all in the Genesis. Before you get all "No chick to bang" with me, know that Seth banged his mom to have kids and the kids banged each-other. It's a whole bunch of incest and stuff. =P

The Bible is surprisingly accurate. It depicts the fall of Egypt, the death of the Philistines, destruction of Jericho, enslavement of the Hebrews, and various locations like the grave of Abraham, Sarah, Isaac and others.

It's really strange how the Bible coincides with events that are assumed to be correct via historical evidence. Sure it might have not been God that was responsible for them, but damned if it wasn't true.

So before you say the Old Testament is a load of bull crap, read up on it. I can safely say taht the New Testament can easily be a laod of bull crap though because it was written long after the death of Jesus (how can people accurately depict an event one-hundred years ago back THEN if we still have trouble depicting events fifty years ago TODAY?) One interesting point that was brought up to me by a fellow classmate of mine is that hte only proof of Jesus existing is in the New Testament and in the New Testament only.

It's kind of funny that a whole religion is based on what some dude wrote about another dude. At least the Old Testament was given by God, and not some dude. >_>



Kahless™

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October 2005
I have a bible in front of me bud, says first the biginning then says the first story then after its finished is Adam and Eve and the story tehre, lucifer is right
"In the end, we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." Martin Luther King


Spektral

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kahless said:
I have a bible in front of me bud, says first the biginning then says the first story then after its finished is Adam and Eve and the story tehre, lucifer is right

That made no sense at all. K. :P

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August 2005
braxis said:

Adam and Eve had three sons (and maybe a daughter, I kinda forgot that part O_o): Cain, Abel, and Seth. Cain kills Abel and is forced to walk the Earth bearing a scar on his forehead to indicate his shame. We are descended from Seth, the third brother, who is almost not talked about at all in the Genesis. Before you get all "No chick to bang" with me, know that Seth banged his mom to have kids and the kids banged each-other. It's a whole bunch of incest and stuff. =P

That being why I say that the Bible contradicts itself. Incest is suppose to be a sin? Yet, we all are a product of incest, so no matter who we sleep with, we're still committing incest. That's how I look at it.

Lucifer

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August 2005
Spek, incest is a good argument against the Bible. Ask anyone who breeds animals or has been to the "deep south". Southern stereotypes aside, excessive inbreeding has many negative consequences such as greatly lowered IQ and physical deformities. If you believe that the Bible is accurate, then you would also have to believe that Adam and Eve were super geniuses, looked nothing like humans do today, that dinosaurs never existed, and that the world is only about 6000 years, despite the hundreds of pieces of evidence that say otherwise.

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lucifer said:
Spek, incest is a good argument against the Bible. Ask anyone who breeds animals or has been to the "deep south". Southern stereotypes aside, excessive inbreeding has many negative consequences such as greatly lowered IQ and physical deformities. If you believe that the Bible is accurate, then you would also have to believe that Adam and Eve were super geniuses, looked nothing like humans do today, that dinosaurs never existed, and that the world is only about 6000 years, despite the hundreds of pieces of evidence that say otherwise.

Well it is said Adam was twice the height of an average man. And you don't always get defects with incest. I'm not justifying it, but it's not like 100/100 products of incest are fucked up. More like 25/100 as opposed to .5/100 with regulars.

And now I remember, there are two creation stories, there was one amazing reason as to why but I forgot. O_o

Seriously, I remember studying the two stories, pointing out differences and that reason connected it all. Peh I havn't done crap with the bible in two years though.

And I believe it was sodomy that was the sin, not incest. But even so, the old testament applies to those of the Jewish faith, and Adam and Eve were NOT Jewish. So nyeh.

I'm not saying evolution didn't happen, I actually have my doubts in the story of creation; I just don't like when people talk about things they're not familiar with. Luci, you said it was "Adam and Eden"....seriously man. :P

And as for the whole 7 day thing, there was something about days then being one century or something. I don't remember where it was written so I can't really justify that well.

Just saying, stop bashing religion so. Atheism pisses me the hell off. Instead of being a prick about it just leave religion alone. Don't tell people there is no God so that you have the right to be angry when people tell you there is one.

See I don't bug people with my beliefs so when a Missionary tells me to convert, I can politely say "fuck off". Perks of keeping retarded beliefs about religion to myself. :P

Kahless™

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October 2005
Christinas start shit with us atheists more than we do you, and the conversion thing pisses me the hell off, most of you little christian pricks attempt to convert atheists,
And as for the whole 7 day thing, there was something about days then being one century or something. I don't remember where it was written so I can't really justify that well.


so basicly your all powerfull and perfect god that can create this utterly massive universe isnt powerfull enough to create everything in the blink of an eye?


Last Edit: Sept 24, 2006 5:51:17 GMT by Kahless™
"In the end, we will not remember the words of our enemies, but the silence of our friends." Martin Luther King


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