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Andrew McGivery

Andrew McGivery Avatar
Formerly Fredy

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Legendary Studio Member

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September 2005
Aaron, That is in interesting quote/article. My only question is how "liars will be thrown into the lake of fire" suddenly mean that. :P

The problem with organized religion is not that it exists, but that man created it. The root reason as to why we have so many religions is because of man, and his beliefs.

More like, if a person doesn't agree with the slightest thing in a religion, they will go and make their own.

Now how, do you explain why each one differs? The only way to explain it, would be that those who altered the original were of a different belief in how, or why things may have occurred.

Just different people translating it and thinking they understand it better. They all generally say the same thing, with a few exceptions. Also, I wouldn't include the book or Mormon in there. They claim to be a christian denomination, but most denominations consider them to be a religion outside of Christianity because their beliefs are just that ridiculous.
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webmaren

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August 2007
Poor categorization. You need to set up a better hierarchy, and this hierarchy needs to logically exclude other possibilities.


I was summarizing the basic 4 beliefs because I'm lazy like that. xD

That's no excuse for inaccuracy.

I.1: Pantheism.

In the sense that I am using it, Pantheism refers to the idea that there is one being in existence. All of the beings that we perceive in "reality" are merely parts of this superbeing. These facets seem to be self-aware, and not able to utilize the rest of the superbeing's abilities (ie. can't control anything beyond themselves). Beyond this information, it becomes difficult to articulate pantheism, as it loses any distinction between objects and beings, as they are all one.

I don't think I can really debate this one beyond the fact that freewill is questionable in this, and I believe strongly in freewill. However, I may have missed something and there IS freewill ni this, but it just doesn't seem like it the way you stated it. :P

Why should the fact that you like the idea of freewill make it any more extant. You have to prove that free will exists. Unfortunately this is impossible to do. In order to prove free will you have to show that both choices can be made, which would require some sort of serious screwing with reality.

First, difficulty in understanding an argument does not make the argument invalid. I do not understand how to program an airplane. It would probably take me a few months to get a cursory understanding of the code in an airplane's control systems. Nevertheless, the plane works (for the most part) flawlessly.


I'm not saying its invalid, I'm saying it seems too stupid to even be a possibility. :P

Just because something seems ridiculous to you does not make it wrong. I suspect that if you told somebody in 1100 AD that in the future there will be a machine that allows people to heat food without fire they would call you an idiot and declare you deranged. But it's happened.

First flaw in this description: It is essentially impossible to justify that there is another person to interact with. According to this philosophy, you can only prove your mind's existence (supported by Descartes), and thus you cannot believe that anything else is real. It could easily have been the product of your subconscious mind.

I suppose. :P But Am I making YOUR existence up, or are you making MINE up? :P And if our subconscious mind is making it up, shouldn't we be able to predict EXACTLY done to the smallest detail exactly what is going to happen at every second and every decision that a person is going to make? Since you know. We're making it up as we go. Like our own little storyboard. :P

Except you keep misconstruing this philosophy. You cannot access the subconscious mind. That's why it's called the subconscious. There's no way to predict what's going on because the system that creates what happens is inaccessible.

There are so many problems with this argument that I'll just start at the beginning. First the athiest ws not clear (shame on him/her!). The imagination did not create the phenomena. The subconscious mind did. That's as much as can be said. Because it is impossible to examine the subconscious mind directly, we have no way of knowing why or how the phenomena were created. Next, quotes from John Locke are not infinitely perfect. Nor from Thomas Hobbes, the Baron Montesquieu or any other other philosopher. Hallucinations disprove this one. A hallucination is a jumble of all sorts of stimuli that have been mashed togther and fed to the visual processes. Also, since we are looking at subconscious processes, not conscious processes, they are not tethered to linear thinking, which produces "distortions." We have also seen computers generate things that are completely unique using genetic algoriths.


The problem with your argument is that the end resulted "hallucination" is still a distortion of things one has already experienced through their senses, or thought processes. A concept such as a divine being can't be created as a distortion of anything on earth because it is just too unique and complicated.[/quote]
You are not listening. There is no reality. Ever. None at all. In this system, only the individual's mind exists. Furthermore, it's very easy to extrapolate a divine being from things on earth.
Article
Feuerbach essentially states that God is just a reflection of man's self. God is man made perfect. Strip away the negative emotions, the mistaken judgements, the frailities of man, and you have God. Nothing more. Why is it that we never see God doing anything a man would not do in holy books. Better than that, why don't we see God doing something that is outside the time period? If God was something other than a reflection of man, these things we would surely see.


If you take every rock on the planet, cut a 1 cubic foot block out of each one big enough, and then go and look at all of the sequences of atoms, you will see many more combinations than are in DNA. DNA combinations can be created just by the forces of nature combining the elements by chance. There is absolutely no scientific reasoning to refute the idea that a DNA pair can be created by a certain chance set of events. We have good reason to believe that the required elements were present on earth in primordial times. We can show that fundamental amino acids can be made by lightning from those precursor chemicals.


So basically your saying that a system that is so complicated that we have yet to fully figure it out and understand it happened by chance? :P


Yes. Because all that chance has to do is put things in positions where the physical laws allow other things to happen. They was no planning, the positions of atoms in rocks is all noise. It matters not, so why does it need to be planned. The laws just say that the atoms stay together somehow. Not why, not in what arrangement, just that they stick together.


As far as the survival of these "chance" organisms, yes, many of them probably died. But the survivors, well, survived. They passed on what gave them success, and those traits subtly modified through evolution, which has been amply proven.

This is just a stupid example, but you might find it humourous. How did these creatures go from using gills to lungs? And why did they even develop lungs in the first place if they were perfectly fine in the water? Maybe its just me, but Growing lungs and going up on land doesn't exactly sound like adapting to your suroundings. :P

Competition. There were a lot of organisms, so once a few of them developed by chance the ability to leave the water and seek food on land (because plants had been there for a long time, competing for sunlight), they were able to reproduce significantly. Being able to live on land was a huge evolutionary advantage. Life finds a way. It's what it does.

Please actually read your sources, rather than just parroting off comments taken out of context. The full quote is available here. Darwin was using a common writing device, where the author concedes that his position seems absurd, then goes about methodically explaining it and deconstructing the arguments against.

:P Didn't Darwin also say that he didn't actaully beleive in what he wrote, but rather just wrote it as an alternative to God ?

I find it simply remarkable. You quoted me asking for sources. You actually quoted that exact line. And then your rebuttal doesn't offer a source. Whereas every single time I have offered sources for my arguments. Please make an effort.



Now that the post-Bang stuff has been cleared up, let's return to causality. THe Big Bang can't come out of nowhere, so it must have come from something. Now, St. Thomas Aquinas tells us that everything must have an ultimate eternal cause, and unmoved mover, etc. I'm going to accept that, mainly because it just makes sense. But where I draw the line is jumping from that to God. There can be an eternal causative force without it having a mind, will, whatever you wish to call it. This force is the Zero-Point Energy Field. This is an inifinite sea of energy underlying the fabric of reality. As far as we can tell, it has always been there. There is absolutely no evidence to show that this field has any sort of will or mind. This is what caused the Big Bang. A seepage of energy from this field created the universe.


So... where exactly did this energy come from and what caused it to cause the big bang? And quite honestly I think that even IF the bg bang happened, it would need some sort of intellgence behind it or some reason to happen. Spontaneous creation jsut doesn't work in my head. :P


This energy came about the same way that you have to justify the existence of God. They exist because they have to. Pure force of logic says "if we are here, there must have been a neccessary cause." Again, just because you cannot understand how something could happen doesn't make it wrong. The way the Zero-Point Field manifest itself now is in small spikes of energy, these spikes balance out when you get to distances we usually work with, so we don't notice most of the time. But if something like that happened before the big bang, when nothing else was there, it could be pretty phenomenal. Universe-creating perhaps?

This is a fact. This is not just an issue of the Big Bang theory, the universe is expanding and we have proof. Now to deal with you misconstruction of the big bang theory. First of all, baseball is way too big. We're talking everything compressed to a sphere of one Planck Length in diameter. A Planck Length is about 0.000000000000000000000000000000000016 meters long. Or if you prefer, 0.00000000000000000000000016 nanometers. Next, matter doesn't exist before the Big Bang, or even for a short time afterword. You're looking at pure energy here. The Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy states that the total amount of energy in a closed system remains constant, and that mass is merely "frozen energy" via E=mc^2. The reason for the expansion is the influx of energy from the Zero-Point Field. It's not going anywhere, in the same sense as evolution, because it's just going forward, wherever forward happens to lead. Like a giant wheel rolling down a hill, it goes, not to get anywhere, but it goes until it stops.



Link is broken. XD So. First your saying that there IS a ball of matter, and tehny our saying there isn't? I'm confused. :P


All of the links in that section were from Wikipedia. You can search for the articles if the link failed. I specifically said there is no matter. What you have is a speck of energy, that's it. It's got a lot of energy in that small size though, and that energy ends up creating the matter, through pair production.

The bible was also written over thousands of years by people having absolutely no contact with each other and not reading the other books and somehow the books just so happened to mesh together. :P


The books of the Bible were selected by the Second Council of Nicea. Likely they chose those books that fit well with each other. Also, the books offer many contradictions across each other, showing that they were not all neccesarily correct. For example, there are four books, I believe John, Matthew, Luke, and Paul (perhaps I am wrong), which all tell of the same events, yet each one tells them differently. Events are left out or reordered in the accounts, yet they all cover the same time period. That's not very consistent now is it?


What could possibly be more fearful than being told that if you don't live your life a certain way you go to an afterlife in a hell where you are constantly being burned and in ever persistent agonizing pain? And if you are good and do as you are told? You go to heaven. To paradise.

Well honestly the thought that if your right and nothing I do matters kind of scares me. :P

But honestly you kind of put that in little kids terms. :P Its more like, live your life serving God and repenting of sins(which most things that are considered sins in the bible are quite reasonable) and oyu go to heaven to meet your creator. Or the alternative where you go to hell which is traditionally beleived to be eternal burning, but more modern beleifs state that you worst part is the issolation as apposed to the pain.


The fact that the truth sucks does not make it any less the truth. People die. And death sucks, but people still die. The universe doesn't care.

Regardless of how you describe it, it's still the same that slaving to God is very good and not doing so is very bad. Hmm, those incentives don't seem in any way stacked in favor of those who control what God "says" to do...




Andrew McGivery

Andrew McGivery Avatar
Formerly Fredy

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Legendary Studio Member

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September 2005
haha. xD Well. Quite honestly This debate is boring now... after I've done it so many times and I seem to be the only one debating from my point of few.. so I think I'll just stop. lol :P
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webmaren

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August 2007
Andrew McGivery Avatar
haha. xD Well. Quite honestly This debate is boring now... after I've done it so many times and I seem to be the only one debating from my point of few.. so I think I'll just stop. lol :P


Fine, have it your way.




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