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Andrew McGivery

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This debate might get a little heated, so try and keep your cool guys. Also, I reserve the right to lock this topic at any time I feel the need to.




This has got to be one of the biggest debates in history. Is there a God? Did we evolve from monkeys? Did a baseball sized ball of matter explode into what we know today? Did everything just always exist? Does anything exist?

I will begin the debate by posting an article I posted a while back in the articles board which addresses this topic.

Debate!





Well. It's probably one of the biggest debates on the face of the earth :P I personally love the debate and love to do research and find more and more ways to make atheists backslide. :) Not to be rude, but rather to be a soldier for God :)

So first things first. There are 4 basic possibilities of how the earth got here:

1. It was always here
2. It doesn't actually exist
3. The big bang
4. Creation

Now, I will talk about each one.

Always Here
This is one of those ones that was accepted widely for a while, but is very stupid these days. Most scientists don't even consider this anymore. Why? Well, theres this thing called the law of thermodynamics which basically states that the universe is winding down, things are running out of energy, and that it will eventually cease to exist. It also states that It is impossible for it to always have been here because if things are slowly winding down, there had to be a beginning where everything was winded up.

For example, think of a wind up doll with the key thing. It can't turn forever. It has to start winded up, and it slowly winds down until it stops because it runs out of momentum. The universe works the same way.

An atheist friend of mine tried to ague this one day, and i laughed pretty hard. I asked her to run from her house to mine without any breaks running as fast as she can. Thats like a 10km run at least. She said she couldn't because she'd get tired and run out of energy. And i said, the universe is running out of energy too. Point proven. However, she wouldn't give up and tried to tell me that the universe could take a break like she could. I then asked her what this break would look like, how i know it would happen, and how often it would take breaks. Lets just say she got frustrated and changed the topic.

Doesn't Actually Exist
You probably didn't even know this one existed. It is just as stupid as it sounds, and is as hard to explain as it is to understand. Basically it states that everything we see doesn't actually exist. Everything we see if just what our consciousness's make the world out to be. IT states that our imaginations create it and we see it through our consciousness. So basically, matter doesn't exist. Only consciousness. IT also states that when we are interacting with another person, we aren't interacting with their consciousness even though we both see the same thing. The two consciousness's just so happen to be seeing the same thing at the same time.

Theres so many problems with this one that i don't know where to start. Well, I can just cancel out the whole thing by saying this. In a debate between a creationist and an atheist, the creationist asked the atheist where the idea of God had come from. The atheist replied by saying that it had come by imagination. The creationist then quoted a famous philosopher named John Locke who said that the imagination can not create. All it can do is take things we have already seen and distort and mess with them. Don't believe it? Try to create something with your mind right now that doesn't have anything that you've seen before. You can't use a 973405 legged cow, because you've seen both legs, and a cow. you can't use anything on earth for that matter. Guess what. You can't. Therefore, It is impossible for a human mind to create something as advanced as the concept of God without experiencing something similar to a divine being previous to the imaginative thought.

Because of this fact, this whole theory is impossible because if we haven't seen the matter, we can't create the concept of it. Case closed.

The Big Bang
Where to start with this one? How about talking about the concept itself. So.Basically it says, nothing made something out of nothing which became something which exploded into something. So something was created by nothing. How dumb does that sound? Well. Thats what it says. Like I mentioned above, the concept of God can't be created by the human imagination, so I shouldn't have to go through this anyways. But. Lets do it anyways!

DNA. Probably one of the most complicated codes known to man. In a single human, there is enough DNA code to fill up books that would fill the grand canyon more than once! DNA makes up what a person is and no DNA is the same. Even each different animal has different sets of DNA. Think about it. There are over 6 billion people in the world. Would you be able to come up with a code that would be able to make over 6 billion completely different combinations? Then Why should I believe that something so complicated and intricately designed was an accident?

Think about a painting. The painting didn't paint itself. It was designed by a painter. A car was designed and made by a car manufacturer. A building was designed and made by builders. None of these happened by accident and they are so simple. Why should I believe that something amazingly complex like the universe happened by accident? IT is creation. It has a creator just like a painting has a painter.

One thing I've never understood about eh big bag is the fact that they say that the universe is still expanding. A few questions if I may. Where is it expanding to? If it is forever expanding, how did infinite matter fit into a ball of matter that size of a baseball? Wouldn't it have to be creating planets and stuff as it went along? But then, isn't it a law of science that matter can't be created or destroyed? How did the planet earth fit into this baseball sized piece of matter? How many questions do I need to ask before the big bang sounds ridiculous?

One common problem with the big bang theory, is the question Where did the matter come from? It couldn't have always been there, and it couldn't have created itself. Its matter. One might argue that the creationist theory has the same problem. Well, think of it this way. If I punched you in the face, you would get angry. the cause would be me punching you, the effect would be you getting angry. You being angry would probably cause you to punch me back. So then we have a chain where i punch you which causes you to get angry which causes you to punch me back. Now, if we go backwards in this chain to before i punched you, to before either of us even met, before anything all the way back to the beginning of the universe, there has to be an initial cause of the chain of causes and effects. There has to be an ultimate cause. Why does there have to be one? Well think of it like a bunch of dominoes where each domino is a cause and effect. The dominoes obviously weren't going around forever. A finger, or the first cause, caused them to start falling. In the case of the universe, the ultimate cause is God. So what happened at the beginning?

Creation
Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That one verse gives us all the answers we need to know. In the beginning, God. Not in the beginning a ball of matter. God. One may ask how we know God didn't create the big bang. Because, Genesis tells us otherwise. It tells us he spoke everything thing into existence in 7 days. IT says nothing about an explosion and matter creating itself. Seven days in which on the seventh, he rested.

Everything around us shouts God's glory at us. Even the simplest things are magnificent. The human eye is God's proof. One eye has million of nerve endings that all work together to give you sight. Even the father of evolution said that suggesting that the eye happened by natural selection would be foolish. Everything about everything in intricately designed by a designer, not by accident. A car is designed with sprayers to wash the windshield. The human eye is designed with tear ducks to lubricate the eyes. How could someone be intellectual and tell me that the whole universe happened by accident? The orbit of the earth around the sun is so precise that if we were to go off .1 of an inch, we would either freeze to death or burn to death depending on if we got closer or farther away. And these perfect orbits happened by accident? Your house didn't happen by accident, why would the universe?

Well, that concludes my short article about Creation VS Atheism. I hope you liked it. :)

k

Aaron

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I don't need to scold you on your poor choice of title again, do I? :P

Either way, unless someone stirs this up any bit, I doubt this debate'll go anywhere. I'd have picked something a little more relevant to SZ's current community.

Just watch how you moderate this one. The misinterpretations can get a little dicey.



Oh, and to further the relevancy of my post, I reserve to counter your quote with half the replies in the articles board. :P


Last Edit: Jul 30, 2008 17:17:11 GMT by Aaron

Josh

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Yeah, crappy title. How about Theism vs. Atheism? And I'll debate once someone posts something. I'm too lazy to start this up today. :P

Andrew McGivery

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:P Well it was still moving along in the articles board so I thought it might go well here. lol. Oh well. Theres always next week xD
k

Hotshot

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I would debate, but I don't really know which one to believe in. Leave me alone I'm just a kid! *cries*

Andrew McGivery

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You could always just question my beliefs and I'll answer you. rofl xD
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webmaren

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Well since everyone else seems to be too lazy, I'll kick this one off. I'm going to address your article from the athiest side of the conversation, and hopefully create something that can't be discussed further.

So first things first. There are 4 basic possibilities of how the earth got here:

1. It was always here
2. It doesn't actually exist
3. The big bang
4. Creation


Poor categorization. You need to set up a better heirarchy, and this heirarchy needs to logically exclude other possibilties. Let's give that a try:

I. The "universe" does not exist.
  1. Pantheism
  2. Dream-State (#2)
II. The universe does exist.
  1. The universe was created by a nonsentient cause.
    A. The big bang.
      i. The big bang came out of nothing. (#3)
      ii. Some eternal force caused the big bang.
      iii. Some noneternal force caused the big bang. (Inifinte loop, devolves to i or ii)
    B. Something else that we haven't discovered did it.
  2. The universe was created by a sentient cause.
    A. The sentient force is eternal (#4).
    B. The sentient force is noneternal (Inifinite loop, devolves to A)
  3. The universe has always existed. (#1)
    A. Always was what it is now.
    B. Events in the previous incarnation of the universe caused it to reset (Cyclical Model)
      i. Said events were the result of nonsentient causes.
      ii. Said events were the result of sentient causes.

Remearkably, we arrive at a total of 11 possibilities, including the loops, and one "something else." It's a lot more complex than the four possibilties you originally gave. And don't even get me started on which minutely differing method to each of those possibilities is right. I don't want to fill up the server's hard disk.

Now I'm going to address each of these 12 possibilities to the best of my ability. This could get lengthy, beware.

I.1: Pantheism.

In the sense that I am using it, Pantheism refers to the idea that there is one being in existence. All of the beings that we perceive in "reality" are merely parts of this superbeing. These facets seem to be self-aware, and not able to utilize the rest of the superbeing's abilities (ie. can't control anything beyond themselves). Beyond this information, it becomes difficult to articulate pantheism, as it loses any distinction between objects and beings, as they are all one.

I.2: Dream-State

This is what you addressed as your second possibility in your article, and I will quote from it during this explanation.

You probably didn't even know this one existed. It is just as stupid as it sounds, and is as hard to explain as it is to understand. Basically it states that everything we see doesn't actually exist. Everything we see if just what our consciousness's make the world out to be. IT states that our imaginations create it and we see it through our consciousness. So basically, matter doesn't exist. Only consciousness. IT also states that when we are interacting with another person, we aren't interacting with their consciousness even though we both see the same thing. The two consciousness's just so happen to be seeing the same thing at the same time.


First, difficulty in understanding an argument does not make the argument invalid. I do not understand how to program an airplane. It would probably take me a few months to get a cursory understanding of the code in an airplane's control systems. Nevertheless, the plane works (for the most part) flawlessly.

First flaw in this description: It is essentially impossible to justify that there is another person to interact with. According to this philosophy, you can only prove your mind's existence (supported by Descartes), and thus you cannot believe that anything else is real. It could easily have been the product of your subconscious mind.

Theres so many problems with this one that i don't know where to start. Well, I can just cancel out the whole thing by saying this. In a debate between a creationist and an atheist, the creationist asked the atheist where the idea of God had come from. The atheist replied by saying that it had come by imagination. The creationist then quoted a famous philosopher named John Locke who said that the imagination can not create. All it can do is take things we have already seen and distort and mess with them. Don't believe it? Try to create something with your mind right now that doesn't have anything that you've seen before. You can't use a 973405 legged cow, because you've seen both legs, and a cow. you can't use anything on earth for that matter. Guess what. You can't. Therefore, It is impossible for a human mind to create something as advanced as the concept of God without experiencing something similar to a divine being previous to the imaginative thought.


There are so many problems with this argument that I'll just start at the beginning. First the athiest ws not clear (shame on him/her!). The imagination did not create the phenomena. The subconscious mind did. That's as much as can be said. Because it is impossible to examine the subconscious mind directly, we have no way of knowing why or how the phenomena were created. Next, quotes from John Locke are not infinitely perfect. Nor from Thomas Hobbes, the Baron Montesquieu or any other other philosopher. Hallucinations disprove this one. A hallucination is a jumble of all sorts of stimuli that have been mashed togther and fed to the visual processes. Also, since we are looking at subconscious processes, not conscious processes, they are not tethered to linear thinking, which produces "distortions." We have also seen computers generate things that are completely unique using genetic algoriths.

And just for kicks, here is a story that gets pretty darn close to uniqueness: everything2.com/title/unbelievable%2520scenes

II.1.A.i: The Big Bang came out of nothing.

As you stated in your article, something cannot come out of nothing. So that closes it for this avenue. But I'm going to take this section to prove that the Big Bang could create this universe, so that all I have to do is prove that the Big Bang could happen later on.

DNA. Probably one of the most complicated codes known to man. In a single human, there is enough DNA code to fill up books that would fill the grand canyon more than once! DNA makes up what a person is and no DNA is the same. Even each different animal has different sets of DNA. Think about it. There are over 6 billion people in the world. Would you be able to come up with a code that would be able to make over 6 billion completely different combinations? Then Why should I believe that something so complicated and intricately designed was an accident?

Think about a painting. The painting didn't paint itself. It was designed by a painter. A car was designed and made by a car manufacturer. A building was designed and made by builders. None of these happened by accident and they are so simple. Why should I believe that something amazingly complex like the universe happened by accident? IT is creation. It has a creator just like a painting has a painter.


If you take every rock on the planet, cut a 1 cubic foot block out of each one big enough, and then go and look at all of the sequences of atoms, you will see many more combinations than are in DNA. DNA combinations can be created just by the forces of nature combining the elements by chance. There is absolutely no scientific reasoning to refute the idea that a DNA pair can be created by a certain chance set of events. We have good reason to believe that the required elements were present on earth in primordial times. We can show that fundamental amino acids can be made by lightning from those precursor chemicals.

As far as the survival of these "chance" organisms, yes, many of them probably died. But the survivors, well, survived. They passed on what gave them success, and those traits subtly modified through evolution, which has been amply proven.

Everything around us shouts God's glory at us. Even the simplest things are magnificent. The human eye is God's proof. One eye has million of nerve endings that all work together to give you sight. Even the father of evolution said that suggesting that the eye happened by natural selection would be foolish. Everything about everything in intricately designed by a designer, not by accident. A car is designed with sprayers to wash the windshield. The human eye is designed with tear ducks to lubricate the eyes. How could someone be intellectual and tell me that the whole universe happened by accident? The orbit of the earth around the sun is so precise that if we were to go off .1 of an inch, we would either freeze to death or burn to death depending on if we got closer or farther away. And these perfect orbits happened by accident? Your house didn't happen by accident, why would the universe?


Please actually read your sources, rather than just parroting off comments taken out of context. The full quote is available here. Darwin was using a common writing device, where the author concedes that his position seems absurd, then goes about methodically explaining it and deconstructing the arguments against.

Secondly, "accident" is an improper term to describe any natural process. Accident implies that something was being attempted by a thinking being and that something else happened that was not supposed to. The formation of all of the things in the universe happened according to natural laws, not a thinking being. And don't even get me started on your earth orbit nonsense. The Habitable Zone of the Sun is approximately 39 million miles wide, or almost 5,000 times the diameter of Earth. The earth also moves farther away and closer to the sun in it's orbit, so even if you don't buy my Habitable Zone argument, you have to go with that.

Moreover, there are more stars than we can count out there, and life only has to evolve on one of them. If life were unable to evolve on Earth, we wouldn't be talking about this right now, you'd be telling me how the features of Quogalash are perfectly tuned to our life. And I'll finish this off with a short quote from Douglas Adams:

This is rather as if you imagine a puddle waking up one morning and thinking, 'This is an interesting world I find myself in - an interesting hole I find myself in - fits me rather neatly, doesn't it? In fact it fits me staggeringly well, must have been made to have me in it!' This is such a powerful idea that as the sun rises in the sky and the air heats up and as, gradually, the puddle gets smaller and smaller, it's still frantically hanging on to the notion that everything's going to be alright, because this world was meant to have him in it,http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conservation_of_energy#Relativity was built to have him in it; so the moment he disappears catches him rather by surprise. I think this may be something we need to be on the watch out for. We all know that at some point in the future the Universe will come to an end and at some other point, considerably in advance from that but still not immediately pressing, the sun will explode. We feel there's plenty of time to worry about that, but on the other hand that's a very dangerous thing to say. Look at what's supposed to be going to happen on the 1st of January 2000 - let's not pretend that we didn't have a warning that the century was going to end! I think that we need to take a larger perspective on who we are and what we are doing here if we are going to survive in the long term.


II.1.A.ii: Some eternal force caused the Big Bang.

This happens to be my viewpoint, so I may soapbox a little more in here than the others. You have been warned.

One common problem with the big bang theory, is the question Where did the matter come from? It couldn't have always been there, and it couldn't have created itself. Its matter. One might argue that the creationist theory has the same problem. Well, think of it this way. If I punched you in the face, you would get angry. the cause would be me punching you, the effect would be you getting angry. You being angry would probably cause you to punch me back. So then we have a chain where i punch you which causes you to get angry which causes you to punch me back. Now, if we go backwards in this chain to before i punched you, to before either of us even met, before anything all the way back to the beginning of the universe, there has to be an initial cause of the chain of causes and effects. There has to be an ultimate cause. Why does there have to be one? Well think of it like a bunch of dominoes where each domino is a cause and effect. The dominoes obviously weren't going around forever. A finger, or the first cause, caused them to start falling. In the case of the universe, the ultimate cause is God. So what happened at the beginning?


Now that the post-Bang stuff has been cleared up, let's return to causality. THe Big Bang can't come out of nowhere, so it must have come from something. Now, St. Thomas Aquinas tells us that everything must have an ultimate eternal cause, and unmoved mover, etc. I'm going to accept that, mainly because it just makes sense. But where I draw the line is jumping from that to God. There can be an eternal causative force without it having a mind, will, whatever you wish to call it. This force is the Zero-Point Energy Field. This is an inifinite sea of energy underlying the fabric of reality. As far as we can tell, it has always been there. There is absolutely no evidence to show that this field has any sort of will or mind. This is what caused the Big Bang. A seepage of energy from this field created the universe.

One thing I've never understood about eh big bag is the fact that they say that the universe is still expanding. A few questions if I may. Where is it expanding to? If it is forever expanding, how did infinite matter fit into a ball of matter that size of a baseball? Wouldn't it have to be creating planets and stuff as it went along? But then, isn't it a law of science that matter can't be created or destroyed? How did the planet earth fit into this baseball sized piece of matter? How many questions do I need to ask before the big bang sounds ridiculous?


This is a fact. This is not just an issue of the Big Bang theory, the universe is expanding and we have proof. Now to deal with you misconstruction of the big bang theory. First of all, baseball is way too big. We're talking everything compressed to a sphere of one Planck Length in diameter. A Planck Length is about 0.000000000000000000000000000000000016 meters long. Or if you prefer, 0.00000000000000000000000016 nanometers. Next, matter doesn't exist before the Big Bang, or even for a short time afterword. You're looking at pure energy here. The Law of Conservation of Mass/Energy states that the total amount of energy in a closed system remains constant, and that mass is merely "frozen energy" via E=mc^2. The reason for the expansion is the influx of energy from the Zero-Point Field. It's not going anywhere, in the same sense as evolution, because it's just going forward, wherever forward happens to lead. Like a giant wheel rolling down a hill, it goes, not to get anywhere, but it goes until it stops.

II.1.A.iii: Some noneternal force caused the Big Bang

As I commented back at the start, this is a loop. Accepting Aquinas' view, a noneternal force requires a creator, ad infinitum until you get to an eternal force. That wraps it for this one.

II.1.B: Something we haven't discovered did it.

Can't really do anything for you here. Just noting that we probably haven't exhausted the possibilities in this category.

II.2.A: The sentient creator is eternal.

Basically here's a God button. The problems with this view: Occam's Razor and zaps to Pantheism.

Occam's Razor:
Both this and the nonsentient eternal force result from the same reasoning. There is nothing concrete to distinct between them. However, William of Occam proposed for us Occam's Razor, which states that the solution that demands the fewest assumptions is most likely to be true. We have a theory which is in all degrees demonstrated to be possible (Nonsentient Eternal), but we can't go back and watch the beginning of the universe so we can't verify it. Then we have the God theory, which adds the assumption that a necessary being would have a will and a mind. Occam's Razor says trim the assumption.

Zaps to Pantheism:

The fact that you have an infinite being raises problems when the theist assumes that their God can interact with the physical world. An infinite being cannot have limits. Therefore, anything it interacts with it must consume. Everything must then be a part of God, because God has interacted with the universe under the theist's system. Thus you have Pantheism.

II.2.B: Sentient creator is noneternal.

Same problem as with the other noneternal. That about covers it.

II.3.A: The universe has been the same as it is now forever.

This is one of those ones that was accepted widely for a while, but is very stupid these days. Most scientists don't even consider this anymore. Why? Well, theres this thing called the law of thermodynamics which basically states that the universe is winding down, things are running out of energy, and that it will eventually cease to exist. It also states that It is impossible for it to always have been here because if things are slowly winding down, there had to be a beginning where everything was winded up.


Giving credit to you, you actually got this one pretty much right. Thermodynamics says this is impossible.

II.3.B.i: Nonsentient causes in the last universe created this one.

Basically this is the old idea of Big Bang/Big Crunch. Not a lot of weight given to it now, but it's not been fully ruled out.

II.3.B.ii: Sentient causes in the last universe created this one.

I'm not going to really explain this one, sufficed to say it is in the realm of science fiction. But it's not necessarily impossible, so who knows?

This story gives a pretty good example of what I'm talking about.




Andrew McGivery

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I give credit to you. Probably the best arguments I've ever seen on pb. :P

However, I happened to read this at around 11pm, so I'll have to post more tomorrow. rofl. :P
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webmaren

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I'll be waiting. This is perhaps my favorite subject to debate.




Josh

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webmaren Avatar
I'll be waiting. This is perhaps my favorite subject to debate.


I read your list and then decided I was done. :P

Kay

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I have no real debate to this. Religion or lack thereof all comes down to each individual. Myself, I'm not an Atheist, but I don't believe the idea of God that is in the bibles is what exists. I'm Agnostic, so for me, I believe in something spiritual, I believe there is something out there that's a higher being than us. Not that it's necessarily God, nor that we came from monkeys. It's kind of one of those unanswered things that I really don't care about having answered.

Andrew McGivery

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I might now have time to reply to this. rofl. Stupid work/life. :P
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Aaron

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Just lock this already. You know it's not goin' anywhere. :P

webmaren

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Andrew McGivery Avatar
I might now have time to reply to this. rofl. Stupid work/life. :P


Aaron Avatar
Just lock this already. You know it's not goin' anywhere. :P


???

Seems to be headed to an actual discussion. Just because only two people are talking doesn't mean it should be locked.

And what kind of staff locks a thread for stalling ???


Last Edit: Aug 1, 2008 10:41:26 GMT by webmaren




Aaron

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I'm not about to explain to you the intricacies of taunting someone. :-/

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