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I don't believe that the Big Bang happened and created everything - I know so. Research and proof worked on by a thousand different scientists says so.  When the Big Bang is no longer a theory then maybe your statement would actually hold some ground. Even scientists who are not religious debate upon the "start" of the universe. The big bang just happens to be the most commonly agreed upon, it has not, in any way, shape, or form, been proven. Lucifer: Christian's and Jew's who read that section in a literal manner do disagree with science, but many sects read the bible in a symbolic manner. Based upon that you can't count all people who "believe" in Genesis out. 1. The Big Bang is about 99% proven. Not an actual statistic, but there's a ton of proof and they're only lacking the truly irrefutable evidence. Otherwise, it's basically been proven. 2. You can read the Bible however you want, but Genesis (or the Creation story) is what it is. There is no figuritive backing behind it. I can understand how Noah's Ark may be a metaphor of some sorts, but the creation of the Earth is hardly a metaphor. It's a way to explain how we all got here. After all, isn't that the primary issue with all theistic beliefs?
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1. The Big Bang is about 99% proven. Not an actual statistic, but there's a ton of proof and they're only lacking the truly irrefutable evidence. Otherwise, it's basically been proven. And 72% of statistics are made up on the spot. There is no proof besides the fact that galaxies are moving away from an apparent origin. That could be tons of things, maybe there never was an actual origin and its just coincidence. Really there is nothing to show that it was the big bang. Sure I happen to believe it's likely, but don't say that it's true or in your case almost true. No, theism isn't to explain how we got here. How you came to that conclusion is probably through some experiences. I believe that religion is to come to an understanding of both the physical and spiritual world around us, but I also came to this conclusion through experiences. There is tons of figurative symbolism in genesis. How about how Adam could represent the physical, while Eve represents the spiritual. The eating of the apple made it so that humans were responsible for their decisions now, not just able to stay in the blissful ignorance called Eden. There are tons of different interpretations able to be read from that story. In the bible there are very loose definitions of day, for all you know it could mean an amount of time, but all the timing is really irrelevant. The point of "then God created..." is to explain that God prepared this world for us, his final creation. Perhaps it did not happen exactly as God created something and bam it was there, but reading like that will obviously cause problems with your scientific beliefs. Imagine instead of that the bible filled with: "On the first day, God caused an explosion of matter through space. On the second day, he waited. On the third day, he waited.... On the millionth YEAR some of the matter formed into distinct bodies such as stars and planets.... On the billionth YEAR one of the planets formed single-celled organisms, the very start of life. On the second billionth YEAR multi-celled organisms had been formed. Dinosaurs, which you have never heard of existed and died for unknown causes, not that this really needs to be in this bible anyways. In the last millions of years humans developed sentience." Does that fit more to your liking? Please excuse any incorrect dating. Last time I checked the bible is not a history book.
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1. The Big Bang is about 99% proven. Not an actual statistic, but there's a ton of proof and they're only lacking the truly irrefutable evidence. Otherwise, it's basically been proven. And 72% of statistics are made up on the spot. There is no proof besides the fact that galaxies are moving away from an apparent origin. That could be tons of things, maybe there never was an actual origin and its just coincidence. Really there is nothing to show that it was the big bang. Sure I happen to believe it's likely, but don't say that it's true or in your case almost true. There's more evidence than just the red shift. There's also actual light which was found from the big bang. Yes, remnants of it. First of all, I specifically stated the story of Creation, not just Genesis in it's entirety (thus the apple story is void). I have no idea what you're getting at with the end of your post other than trying to support me. You were being sarcastic, but that sarcasm did nothing more than point out how foolish the Bible really is. Also, it doesn't matter how long a day is. The Bible says the Sun came AFTER the Earth which we know isn't true.
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First of all, I specifically stated the story of Creation, not just Genesis in it's entirety (thus the apple story is void). I have no idea what you're getting at with the end of your post other than trying to support me. You were being sarcastic, but that sarcasm did nothing more than point out how foolish the Bible really is. Also, it doesn't matter how long a day is. The Bible says the Sun came AFTER the Earth which we know isn't true. How foolish the Bible really is? How about the person that is foolish enough to try and read the Bible like a fact book? Only the most close-minded Christians believe in the Creation story in a literal sense. I may not be able to tell you the meanings of the creation story, but I'm sure there is someone who can. My biblical studies aren't deep, I'm not Christian. However from the look of it I've studied deeper than you. It's disappointing that are close-minded enough to get tripped up by the first few lines.
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First of all, I specifically stated the story of Creation, not just Genesis in it's entirety (thus the apple story is void). I have no idea what you're getting at with the end of your post other than trying to support me. You were being sarcastic, but that sarcasm did nothing more than point out how foolish the Bible really is. Also, it doesn't matter how long a day is. The Bible says the Sun came AFTER the Earth which we know isn't true. How foolish the Bible really is? How about the person that is foolish enough to try and read the Bible like a fact book? Only the most close-minded Christians believe in the Creation story in a literal sense. I may not be able to tell you the meanings of the creation story, but I'm sure there is someone who can. My biblical studies aren't deep, I'm not Christian. However from the look of it I've studied deeper than you. It's disappointing that are close-minded enough to get tripped up by the first few lines. I can't say I know a single Christian who doesn't believe that the Earth was created in 6 days. And, being raised as a Catholic, I know a lot of Christians. But tell me, where in the Bible does it say everything is figuritive? Apparently I missed that footnote, because as far as I can tell, you're just as close-minded to condemn others for their interpretation as they are. So I guess you're telling me that Earth being created in 6 days, Noah building an ark, Jonah being swallowed by a big fish, Jesus walking on water, Mary giving birth while still a virgin, Jesus dying and then being ressurected, Moses parting the sea, the 10 plagues, and so on and so forth are ALL to be taken FIGURATIVELY and that not one shred of it is historical? You have GOT to be kidding me.
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Luci ftw!! - nice to see u back!! 1. The Big Bang is about 99% proven. Not an actual statistic, but there's a ton of proof and they're only lacking the truly irrefutable evidence. Otherwise, it's basically been proven. And 72% of statistics are made up on the spot. There is no proof besides the fact that galaxies are moving away from an apparent origin. That could be tons of things, maybe there never was an actual origin and its just coincidence. Really there is nothing to show that it was the big bang. Sure I happen to believe it's likely, but don't say that it's true or in your case almost true. u've gotta be kidding me! Big-Bang is likely? Galaxies being pushed apart from a point of apparent origin could be due to a lot of things? Maybe there was no origin and yet a force stronger than gravity continues to push everything outwards?? v=HDthis is Hubble's law - where v: recessional velocity of the galaxy H: Hubble's constant D: distance to the galaxy Hubble's Law explains redshifting of light: the universe is uniformly expanding everywhere as a unique property of spacetime. This universal expansion was developed mathematically in the context of general relativity well before Hubble made his analysis and observations, and it remains the cornerstone of the Big Bang theory as developed by Friedmann-Lemaître-Robertson-Walker. that's just the basic concept and logic behind Big-Bang. Early in the twentieth Century, the competing steady state theory lost out due to mathematical contradictions. With the discovery of cosmic microwave background radiation (emanating from the time of the big bang) in 1964, the Big Bang theory had much more conclusive evidence. That's just the start - if you read up more on the Big Bang --- tons more research has been done on it till date. It is the only thing the explains how baryonic matter, dark matter and dark energy were created and how they interact.
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I can't say I know a single Christian who doesn't believe that the Earth was created in 6 days. And, being raised as a Catholic, I know a lot of Christians. When did you move to the farmer societies of Utah? =O And since the Bible was written by man, a lot of things could have suggestive metaphorical meaning, which is one interpretation. HOWEVER I still reiterate my first post, which I'm too lazy to quote. Reiterate, as in I already iterated it before. Maybe multiple times.
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First of all, I specifically stated the story of Creation, not just Genesis in it's entirety (thus the apple story is void). I have no idea what you're getting at with the end of your post other than trying to support me. You were being sarcastic, but that sarcasm did nothing more than point out how foolish the Bible really is. Also, it doesn't matter how long a day is. The Bible says the Sun came AFTER the Earth which we know isn't true. How foolish the Bible really is? How about the person that is foolish enough to try and read the Bible like a fact book? Only the most close-minded Christians believe in the Creation story in a literal sense. I may not be able to tell you the meanings of the creation story, but I'm sure there is someone who can. My biblical studies aren't deep, I'm not Christian. However from the look of it I've studied deeper than you. It's disappointing that are close-minded enough to get tripped up by the first few lines. If you try hard enough, you can find an alternate meaning to anything. Let me show you: "She dropped her purse." The purse represents the elements of this person's life. When she "dropped" it, she lost control of those elements. However, if she attempts it, she CAN pick herself back up again. Wasn't too hard...so tell me, how do you know God wanted you to read between the lines? Maybe the text was meant to be taken literally...maybe the writers actually meant every word they said...you can't do that shit. The only reason anyone ever tried to re-interpret the bible is because they didn't agree with it or they wanted to make it sound less rediculous. It's just a sad attempt to try and save a religion that's already been disproven.
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I can't say I know a single Christian who doesn't believe that the Earth was created in 6 days. And, being raised as a Catholic, I know a lot of Christians. When did you move to the farmer societies of Utah? =O And since the Bible was written by man, a lot of things could have suggestive metaphorical meaning, which is one interpretation. HOWEVER I still reiterate my first post, which I'm too lazy to quote. Reiterate, as in I already iterated it before. Maybe multiple times. Well, Christianity is the dominant Western religion and seeing as it incorperates Islam and Jewish mythology in it, there's not a lot of other religions to debate other than say, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism, and other more obscure religions. Plus, no one is being forced to stay on Christianity. Other religions are welcome to be brought up (if, say, there is substantial evidence supporting some part of the religion which contradicts science--so as long as there's an argument to be made, basically). This is just where it's going. Debates evolve just like biological organisms do, though I entirely understand your concern. I'll make sure it doesn't turn into a flame/bash thread. 
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Yes, I do believe in religion. I find it incredibly dubious to proclaim that preceding the big bang, nothing was found. There was no time, no space. Incredibly hard to consider, unless you take into account one possible factor: Divine Intervention. It's quite possible for scientific theories, and religious prophecies to co-exist with each other. All it really requires is an open mind. I find it incredibly dubious to proclaim that our universe is the one, sole universe and that nothing exists outside of it. In other words, you're basing your logic on an assumption that says our universe is the only one. And I suppose you have proof of their being more than one existing universe? From what I see, you are basing your rebuke on the assumption of there being more than one universe. You are right to an extent with the co-existence of religion with science, but I've read Genesis and it clearly states that God created the world in 6 days, the Sun on the fourth. However, we know that it could not have possibly happened this way and that the Big Bang had to be in there somewhere long before Earth's creation. So not ALL religions can co-exist with science. Though, I do believe Hinduism is one of them (they believe that every 100 billion years, Brahma destroys everything he created and recreates it. That could theoretically work with the Big Bang theory, though I don't know the specifics of it so I can't say for sure. I meant on the vague belief of one god, specifics aside. Yes, it is hard to consider there being one god since the "beginning" of time, whatever your comprehension of time is. We do have proof of the big bang happening, but we have no proof that it is what created everything. The only real proof I have come across so far is that scientists have found light projected images of the big bang which has been traveling for hundreds of light years. But that doesn't give any true proof of creation.
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(Yea, jumping into the topic sort of late... But there is barely anything in general to post in... -.-)
I'm going to have to side with Science on this one.
I feel that god is a complete and utter conception of the human mind in order to comprehend things that we cannot explain with evidence.
Small example: If a volcano goes "boom" and the nearby tribe does not know what it is, they pray to the heavens thinking they have somehow angered the gods. They make up gods to explain things.
There have been TONS of ancient gods. Each one explains something different and controls something in the world. Death, love, wars, the sun, birth, earthquakes, volcanoes, storms, the oceans. Everything in the natural world is or has been on that list.
Nowadays, we know much, much more. So, we only need to have one god because we only need to explain two main questions: How did we get here in the first place, and what happens after death.
The information left to learn is slowly being limited and soon we will have an explanation for those two things. When that happens, what will become of religion? Will they wage war against the scientists and non-believers, fighting for a god that explains everything that we used to not know?
If science is just using logic to explain things, wouldn't science also explain why science will find out the information that religion explains using faith and stories? It only takes logic and the ability to look at history to figure that one out.
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fallen
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Yes, I am a Catholic. Yes, I believe in faith and religion. And yes, I also believe in logic and science.
You see people, the Bible is symbolic. That's what people keep overlooking at. That's the reason too many people find it "mythical" or "trivial". They take it "literally". If you feel that I'm telling this just because I'm Catholic, then you're not mature enough for this conversation.
For example, when the Bible says "for forty days and forty nights", it doesn't literally mean "forty days and forty nights". When it comes to Biblical approach, "forty", most often, stands for a long period of time. The 7 days of creation doesn't literally mean 168 hours. It could be the million years of evolution, but since the Bible itself is written in times when Charles Darwin is a thousand years ahead, the people wouldn't know how to address that fact - evolution for example. We, knowing modern science, don't understand what's beyond these people's ancient writing, so we take it the way it was written. That's why it's so "unbelievable".
Our sect even approaches the Bible in a scientific way, and I've witnessed situations, where science proved the words of the Bible.
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Which words of the bible did science prove?
It's true that most of the bible wasn't "literal" but instead written to convey morals and stories.
However, that's where science beats religion. You have cold hard facts in science, told how they really are, while in religion you have a bunch of stories and over-exaggerated info in it trying to make you a follower. What if god wasn't meant to be taken literal as well? Then all of religion is useless, outside of providing some morals to guide people to a safe and good life.
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fallen
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Perhaps, the most controversial (and can be put as the most "unbelievable") part of the Bible is the Book of Exodus. Now, before I start citing some "cold, hard facts" as you say, do you know at least something about the Exodus? It's quite hard to start all the way from square zero. 
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Growing up Lutheran, Im a strong believer in faith. What I dont understand is how some random blob came out of water (and how did the water get there?) and suddenly became a man. How did the blob form? What was the blob made of? And how did the makings of the blob get there? I think its way more believable to say that God created the earth then some random blob crawling out of a body of water. But yeahhh... [ha. sorry about my lack of knowledge. I have no range of vocabulary, im referring to my use of 'blob'] [edit:] I also find it hard to believe evolution because of how many different stories there are. I have not yet heard two theories of evolution that are same. & im just going to agree with whoever said the bible is NOT a fact book and it is NOT written by God himself. Man wrote it therefore there will be mistakes because we are not perfect. I also kind of found that a little offending. The Bible is simply foolish to you because you dont believe in it, but to others, its the only thing that gets them through they're life. If you truly read the entire Bible and studied it every day like I had to in school (Going to a Lutheran k-8 school, high school, and college) You would realize that it indeed is not a book telling us how things were made, but why and why we should believe them. No one said you had to believe in the Bible, why do you think Christianity is not the main teaching of the world? I just dont see how you can turn down such an uplifting and inspiring book, and I dont know how you can get through life without it. & im normally not a person to cause uproar but I just thought I needed to add this. [edit, edit:] Sorry about this i just keep finding more and more things to blurb about [blurb... a word? i dunno] Okay I just wanted to quote this: No one really answered that question. The simple answer is, look at your family tree. It started with someone as far as you remembered like your great great great great great great grandpa Wilmer and his wife Wilma. They had Pete and Zach. Pete and Zach got married. Pete and Zach had three children each, they got married, and so on and so forth. Its called growing. And Im also going to state that people were able to have babies older and they lived to be 900 years old and such. [If your going to start something about that I will explain that years were probably shorter then so 900 could have been like 95 in our life time] Also I'd like to tell you Adam and Eve had three sons Cain, Able, and Seth. Cain killed Able out of jealousy and they bore Seth soon later. The point is, Cain and Seth progressed on, Got married, had children, they're children had children, they're childrens childre had children and so forth.
Last Edit: Apr 12, 2007 5:37:30 GMT by [.smilee.]
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Little Girl
What were you thinking?
That he would ever call
Little girl were you thinking?
your nothing special at all.
Your hearts nothing to be cared for
and niether are you
Little girl your hearts broken
and theres nothing you can do.
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