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Andrew McGivery

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Formerly Fredy

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September 2005
Well, I wrote this for a Christian forum, but i thought it would spring a nice debate. :P




Well. It's probably one of the biggest debates on the face of the earth :P I personally love the debate and love to do research and find more and more ways to make atheists backslide. :) Not to be rude, but rather to be a soldier for God :)

So first things first. There are 4 basic possibilities of how the earth got here:

1. It was always here
2. It doesn't actually exist
3. The big bang
4. Creation

Now, I will talk about each one.

Always Here
This is one of those ones that was accepted widely for a while, but is very stupid these days. Most scientists don't even consider this anymore. Why? Well, theres this thing called the law of thermodynamics which basically states that the universe is winding down, things are running out of energy, and that it will eventually cease to exist. It also states that It is impossible for it to always have been here because if things are slowly winding down, there had to be a beginning where everything was winded up.

For example, think of a wind up doll with the key thing. It can't turn forever. It has to start winded up, and it slowly winds down until it stops because it runs out of momentum. The universe works the same way.

An atheist friend of mine tried to ague this one day, and i laughed pretty hard. I asked her to run from her house to mine without any breaks running as fast as she can. Thats like a 10km run at least. She said she couldn't because she'd get tired and run out of energy. And i said, the universe is running out of energy too. Point proven. However, she wouldn't give up and tried to tell me that the universe could take a break like she could. I then asked her what this break would look like, how i know it would happen, and how often it would take breaks. Lets just say she got frustrated and changed the topic.

Doesn't Actually Exist
You probably didn't even know this one existed. It is just as stupid as it sounds, and is as hard to explain as it is to understand. Basically it states that everything we see doesn't actually exist. Everything we see if just what our consciousness's make the world out to be. IT states that our imaginations create it and we see it through our consciousness. So basically, matter doesn't exist. Only consciousness. IT also states that when we are interacting with another person, we aren't interacting with their consciousness even though we both see the same thing. The two consciousness's just so happen to be seeing the same thing at the same time.

Theres so many problems with this one that i don't know where to start. Well, I can just cancel out the whole thing by saying this. In a debate between a creationist and an atheist, the creationist asked the atheist where the idea of God had come from. The atheist replied by saying that it had come by imagination. The creationist then quoted a famous philosopher named John Locke who said that the imagination can not create. All it can do is take things we have already seen and distort and mess with them. Don't believe it? Try to create something with your mind right now that doesn't have anything that you've seen before. You can't use a 973405 legged cow, because you've seen both legs, and a cow. you can't use anything on earth for that matter. Guess what. You can't. Therefore, It is impossible for a human mind to create something as advanced as the concept of God without experiencing something similar to a divine being previous to the imaginative thought.

Because of this fact, this whole theory is impossible because if we haven't seen the matter, we can't create the concept of it. Case closed.

The Big Bang
Where to start with this one? How about talking about the concept itself. So.Basically it says, nothing made something out of nothing which became something which exploded into something. So something was created by nothing. How dumb does that sound? Well. Thats what it says. Like I mentioned above, the concept of God can't be created by the human imagination, so I shouldn't have to go through this anyways. But. Lets do it anyways!

DNA. Probably one of the most complicated codes known to man. In a single human, there is enough DNA code to fill up books that would fill the grand canyon more than once! DNA makes up what a person is and no DNA is the same. Even each different animal has different sets of DNA. Think about it. There are over 6 billion people in the world. Would you be able to come up with a code that would be able to make over 6 billion completely different combinations? Then Why should I believe that something so complicated and intricately designed was an accident?

Think about a painting. The painting didn't paint itself. It was designed by a painter. A car was designed and made by a car manufacturer. A building was designed and made by builders. None of these happened by accident and they are so simple. Why should I believe that something amazingly complex like the universe happened by accident? IT is creation. It has a creator just like a painting has a painter.

One thing I've never understood about eh big bag is the fact that they say that the universe is still expanding. A few questions if I may. Where is it expanding to? If it is forever expanding, how did infinite matter fit into a ball of matter that size of a baseball? Wouldn't it have to be creating planets and stuff as it went along? But then, isn't it a law of science that matter can't be created or destroyed? How did the planet earth fit into this baseball sized piece of matter? How many questions do I need to ask before the big bang sounds ridiculous?

One common problem with the big bang theory, is the question Where did the matter come from? It couldn't have always been there, and it couldn't have created itself. Its matter. One might argue that the creationist theory has the same problem. Well, think of it this way. If I punched you in the face, you would get angry. the cause would be me punching you, the effect would be you getting angry. You being angry would probably cause you to punch me back. So then we have a chain where i punch you which causes you to get angry which causes you to punch me back. Now, if we go backwards in this chain to before i punched you, to before either of us even met, before anything all the way back to the beginning of the universe, there has to be an initial cause of the chain of causes and effects. There has to be an ultimate cause. Why does there have to be one? Well think of it like a bunch of dominoes where each domino is a cause and effect. The dominoes obviously weren't going around forever. A finger, or the first cause, caused them to start falling. In the case of the universe, the ultimate cause is God. So what happened at the beginning?

Creation
Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That one verse gives us all the answers we need to know. In the beginning, God. Not in the beginning a ball of matter. God. One may ask how we know God didn't create the big bang. Because, Genesis tells us otherwise. It tells us he spoke everything thing into existence in 7 days. IT says nothing about an explosion and matter creating itself. Seven days in which on the seventh, he rested.

Everything around us shouts God's glory at us. Even the simplest things are magnificent. The human eye is God's proof. One eye has million of nerve endings that all work together to give you sight. Even the father of evolution said that suggesting that the eye happened by natural selection would be foolish. Everything about everything in intricately designed by a designer, not by accident. A car is designed with sprayers to wash the windshield. The human eye is designed with tear ducks to lubricate the eyes. How could someone be intellectual and tell me that the whole universe happened by accident? The orbit of the earth around the sun is so precise that if we were to go off .1 of an inch, we would either freeze to death or burn to death depending on if we got closer or farther away. And these perfect orbits happened by accident? Your house didn't happen by accident, why would the universe?

Well, that concludes my short article about Creation VS Atheism. I hope you liked it. :)



Last Edit: Nov 3, 2008 3:18:39 GMT by Chris
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fireindy

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Wow, very well put together Fredy. You know, you cant help to ponder these things sometimes. I have to admit, even though the one about all of this not existing sounds wierd, its interesting to think about. Just imagine, we all are just seeing everything through our conscious. That justs give me some brain food :).

I am a very religious person, and believe in the concept of Creation. That said, all the controversies over the other theories I think is dumb, to a point. It has led to war and violence. If, infact, their is God, in which I say there is, would it matter to God if one believed in another theory? But they still believe that there is a God. And doesnt the bible say that everyone is God's child no matter what they believe? Brain food :)

Im tired and might post more later :) '

But good job Fred.




Aaron

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November 2006
z0mg, an article! :P

I'd read it, but it's no fun without my Luci. :(

Andrew McGivery

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Yea. I thought the articles board could use some new material :P
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mukei

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d00d lucifer pwns j00. :P

I've came up with my own little theory: there is no theory. We simply cannot comprehend or understand how we were created or came to be about, because logically via the boundaries we have set due to our five sense and what we can observe with them, it simply doesn't make sense. For example, if a certain god created us, then who created god? If not so, how was God "always there?" This type of thinking raises several questions. The best counter I've seen to it is that we're getting closer to the actual truth every generation. Yeah, it's nice to know that mankind has been able to travel only up to 1 light second (moon) with actual humans. We're really getting close to the truth, aren't we?

Andrew McGivery

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For example, if a certain god created us, then who created god? If not so, how was God "always there?"


The concept of time didn't exist until matter existed. Why? Because time is measured as how long matter has existed. Why do i saw that? Well. On a time line, it starts AND ends with matter existing. Even in the event of the big bang, time starts at the big bang, where matter existed. So, in other words, time doesn't effect God. Obviously it doesn't make sense to our humans minds because we are pretty stupid. But, it makes sense to the all knowing God.
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Aaron

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November 2006
Again, I really dont' want to get drawn into this, but one thing...

An atheist believes in no god. "Creation" can mean anything. "Creation vs Atheism" doesn't make sense. "Creationism vs Atheism" wouldn't even make sense. So, if you can't even figure the title out, it's really not worth the read. ;)

Call me an asshole but that's how I feel; Insulted. :P


Last Edit: Jul 25, 2007 6:32:03 GMT by Aaron

Andrew McGivery

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LOL SO. What would you rather me call it? Creation VS Aaron? :P
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RS

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Well put man :)

lmao

Creation VS Aaron...

IMO

God created this place ;D

Simie

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May 2006
Nice article :P Some good points you've got there :)

Andrew McGivery

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September 2005
Thanks guys :)
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mukei

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fredy said:

For example, if a certain god created us, then who created god? If not so, how was God "always there?"


The concept of time didn't exist until matter existed. Why? Because time is measured as how long matter has existed. Why do i saw that? Well. On a time line, it starts AND ends with matter existing. Even in the event of the big bang, time starts at the big bang, where matter existed. So, in other words, time doesn't effect God. Obviously it doesn't make sense to our humans minds because we are pretty stupid. But, it makes sense to the all knowing God.


You can't make the concept of matter as the beginning of time. We are made to think in a way that everything had to be somewhere in the middle of this timeline, thus you're saying that matter was the beginning of this timeline. It's not difficult to say that time started with the big bang, but that doesn't prove that the big bang was the beginning of everything. If you drag God into the picture, God was before the big bang, and if you put the same theory onto God, then God had to be "not there" at some point of time, and so on. And so, humans like to put out with that by simply making this one "all powerful and all knowing" God to make up what we don't know and really, make the unknown to us immediately superior to us.

Andrew McGivery

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Actually I was saying that time has no effect on God, and time didn't exist until God created it.

next, we can't say that the big bang was the beginning of this "timeline" because a ball of matter doesn't have any intelligence, and something with intellect had to start time in the first place. If you refer back to my article, and look at the cause effect paragraph, there has to be an ultimate cause, which has to have intellect.


And so, humans like to put out with that by simply making this one "all powerful and all knowing" God to make up what we don't know and really, make the unknown to us immediately superior to us.


I thought we already established that the human mind doesn't have creative powers, and therefore can't create the concept of God? :P Refer to my article. :P lol xP
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mukei

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fredy said:
Actually I was saying that time has no effect on God, and time didn't exist until God created it.

next, we can't say that the big bang was the beginning of this "timeline" because a ball of matter doesn't have any intelligence, and something with intellect had to start time in the first place. If you refer back to my article, and look at the cause effect paragraph, there has to be an ultimate cause, which has to have intellect.


And so, humans like to put out with that by simply making this one "all powerful and all knowing" God to make up what we don't know and really, make the unknown to us immediately superior to us.


I thought we already established that the human mind doesn't have creative powers, and therefore can't create the concept of God? :P Refer to my article. :P lol xP


See, there doesn't need to be an ultimate cause. The "reason" can be/is something completely beyond our understanding. We're not stupid, but rather humans are ignorant, which can generally be sometimes a form of stupidity. The "cause" that you're pointing out doesn't need to be a reason. It can be a mistake for all I care. The point is we cannot comprehend it, nor understand it within the barriers of our senses and intelligence based upon these senses. Theoretically there are infinitely many senses, and we know some, but have very few (5) to experience for ourselves.

You're making God have humanized morals. Creativity, originality, power, these are merely humans' many feelings of the world. Putting up with only these morals of humans on "God" is not only ignorant, but is contradicting with itself. We can create the concept of God..the Bible is a clear example, but our concepts and beliefs are heavily wrong even if God does exists. That is my point.

Andrew McGivery

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The thing is, we don't fully comprehend or understand God. Why? The same reasons you gave for this unknown thing your talking about. Because we are limited in our knowledge and our senses.

How am I making God have humanized morals? Creativity, originality and power are characteristics, not morals. Morals are like believing that killing someone is wrong. And I'm not giving God human characteristics, I'm giving humans Gods characteristics. The bible clearly displays that God has characteristics. IT even describes them in detail. ex: Love, mercy, ect.,

How is the bible an example of us creating the concept of God? You even said that things like this are beyond our understanding because of our limited senses and intelligence. Our imagination is based off of our senses. When you make something with your imagination, you use your senses. Example, if i were to imagine a grassy field, first I would Imagine the long grass and sky (sight), then what it feels like under my feet(touch) and so forth. We cannot create a concept as complex as God, because we have never experienced anything like God with our senses. Our imagination just isn't that complex.
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