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mukei

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July 2006
I win. The end.




This is thread is so old. :P

Quinine

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It's a good debate, though.

Aaron

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I'll add to it when I get together my work on "objective morality." :P

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Aaron Avatar
I'll add to it when I get together my work on "objective morality." :P


I'll too, when I's cover 'rithmetic.

.XeroCint

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That was really wonderful, and I'm a proud number 4 :D.

But, tbh, we just haven't let you people know it doesn't exist yet. We're saving that for when there's only a couple hundred of you. Easier to keep track of ;)... :P



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Andrew McGivery

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maybe one of the debates of the week will contain this topic. We'll see. :P
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stoner
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Good Job Fredy! That is a good Debate!

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Well, I wrote this for a Christian forum, but i thought it would spring a nice debate. :P




Well. It's probably one of the biggest debates on the face of the earth :P I personally love the debate and love to do research and find more and more ways to make atheists backslide. :) Not to be rude, but rather to be a soldier for God :)

So first things first. There are 4 basic possibilities of how the earth got here:

1. It was always here
2. It doesn't actually exist
3. The big bang
4. Creation

Now, I will talk about each one.

Always Here
This is one of those ones that was accepted widely for a while, but is very stupid these days. Most scientists don't even consider this anymore. Why? Well, theres this thing called the law of thermodynamics which basically states that the universe is winding down, things are running out of energy, and that it will eventually cease to exist. It also states that It is impossible for it to always have been here because if things are slowly winding down, there had to be a beginning where everything was winded up.

For example, think of a wind up doll with the key thing. It can't turn forever. It has to start winded up, and it slowly winds down until it stops because it runs out of momentum. The universe works the same way.

An atheist friend of mine tried to ague this one day, and i laughed pretty hard. I asked her to run from her house to mine without any breaks running as fast as she can. Thats like a 10km run at least. She said she couldn't because she'd get tired and run out of energy. And i said, the universe is running out of energy too. Point proven. However, she wouldn't give up and tried to tell me that the universe could take a break like she could. I then asked her what this break would look like, how i know it would happen, and how often it would take breaks. Lets just say she got frustrated and changed the topic.

Doesn't Actually Exist
You probably didn't even know this one existed. It is just as stupid as it sounds, and is as hard to explain as it is to understand. Basically it states that everything we see doesn't actually exist. Everything we see if just what our consciousness's make the world out to be. IT states that our imaginations create it and we see it through our consciousness. So basically, matter doesn't exist. Only consciousness. IT also states that when we are interacting with another person, we aren't interacting with their consciousness even though we both see the same thing. The two consciousness's just so happen to be seeing the same thing at the same time.

Theres so many problems with this one that i don't know where to start. Well, I can just cancel out the whole thing by saying this. In a debate between a creationist and an atheist, the creationist asked the atheist where the idea of God had come from. The atheist replied by saying that it had come by imagination. The creationist then quoted a famous philosopher named John Locke who said that the imagination can not create. All it can do is take things we have already seen and distort and mess with them. Don't believe it? Try to create something with your mind right now that doesn't have anything that you've seen before. You can't use a 973405 legged cow, because you've seen both legs, and a cow. you can't use anything on earth for that matter. Guess what. You can't. Therefore, It is impossible for a human mind to create something as advanced as the concept of God without experiencing something similar to a divine being previous to the imaginative thought.

Because of this fact, this whole theory is impossible because if we haven't seen the matter, we can't create the concept of it. Case closed.

The Big Bang
Where to start with this one? How about talking about the concept itself. So.Basically it says, nothing made something out of nothing which became something which exploded into something. So something was created by nothing. How dumb does that sound? Well. Thats what it says. Like I mentioned above, the concept of God can't be created by the human imagination, so I shouldn't have to go through this anyways. But. Lets do it anyways!

DNA. Probably one of the most complicated codes known to man. In a single human, there is enough DNA code to fill up books that would fill the grand canyon more than once! DNA makes up what a person is and no DNA is the same. Even each different animal has different sets of DNA. Think about it. There are over 6 billion people in the world. Would you be able to come up with a code that would be able to make over 6 billion completely different combinations? Then Why should I believe that something so complicated and intricately designed was an accident?

Think about a painting. The painting didn't paint itself. It was designed by a painter. A car was designed and made by a car manufacturer. A building was designed and made by builders. None of these happened by accident and they are so simple. Why should I believe that something amazingly complex like the universe happened by accident? IT is creation. It has a creator just like a painting has a painter.

One thing I've never understood about eh big bag is the fact that they say that the universe is still expanding. A few questions if I may. Where is it expanding to? If it is forever expanding, how did infinite matter fit into a ball of matter that size of a baseball? Wouldn't it have to be creating planets and stuff as it went along? But then, isn't it a law of science that matter can't be created or destroyed? How did the planet earth fit into this baseball sized piece of matter? How many questions do I need to ask before the big bang sounds ridiculous?

One common problem with the big bang theory, is the question Where did the matter come from? It couldn't have always been there, and it couldn't have created itself. Its matter. One might argue that the creationist theory has the same problem. Well, think of it this way. If I punched you in the face, you would get angry. the cause would be me punching you, the effect would be you getting angry. You being angry would probably cause you to punch me back. So then we have a chain where i punch you which causes you to get angry which causes you to punch me back. Now, if we go backwards in this chain to before i punched you, to before either of us even met, before anything all the way back to the beginning of the universe, there has to be an initial cause of the chain of causes and effects. There has to be an ultimate cause. Why does there have to be one? Well think of it like a bunch of dominoes where each domino is a cause and effect. The dominoes obviously weren't going around forever. A finger, or the first cause, caused them to start falling. In the case of the universe, the ultimate cause is God. So what happened at the beginning?

Creation
Genesis 1:1 says: "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth." That one verse gives us all the answers we need to know. In the beginning, God. Not in the beginning a ball of matter. God. One may ask how we know God didn't create the big bang. Because, Genesis tells us otherwise. It tells us he spoke everything thing into existence in 7 days. IT says nothing about an explosion and matter creating itself. Seven days in which on the seventh, he rested.

Everything around us shouts God's glory at us. Even the simplest things are magnificent. The human eye is God's proof. One eye has million of nerve endings that all work together to give you sight. Even the father of evolution said that suggesting that the eye happened by natural selection would be foolish. Everything about everything in intricately designed by a designer, not by accident. A car is designed with sprayers to wash the windshield. The human eye is designed with tear ducks to lubricate the eyes. How could someone be intellectual and tell me that the whole universe happened by accident? The orbit of the earth around the sun is so precise that if we were to go off .1 of an inch, we would either freeze to death or burn to death depending on if we got closer or farther away. And these perfect orbits happened by accident? Your house didn't happen by accident, why would the universe?

Well, that concludes my short article about Creation VS Atheism. I hope you liked it. :)



heres a question for u to ponder on,if god created the universe,who created god? he couldnt of created himself,like u said the painting couldnt have created itself the painter did,so who created god?

stoner
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We don't know , sadly!

Andrew McGivery

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heres a question for u to ponder on,if god created the universe,who created god? he couldnt of created himself,like u said the painting couldnt have created itself the painter did,so who created god?


The law of causality states that every motion has a mover, and every mover has a mover, and so forth. However, it also states that eventually there has to be a prime mover, one that starts the motion. This mover must be intelligent in order to start the first motion. In our case, the mover is God.
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Josh

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But something had to have created everything. The most logical (in my opinion) explanation for existence is evolution from infinitely small particles of matter. It would explain where everything in the universe came from because, let's face it, 15-20 Billion Years is a freaking long time. But again... where did the matter come from? The only thing that I can think of without bringing a deity into this which cannot be explained either is the accepted fourth dimension: time. The only dimension, the only thing in this universe that is truly immortal. Time has always been here (even before the universe started) and will always be here even when there is nothing left to keep track of it. The only thing I can think of to explain the matter was that the fourth dimension somehow ripped or produced matter in some way. Other than that, all I've got is that everything evolved from matter over the last 15-20 billion years. Before that is really anyone's guess but I definitely do not see a deity being responsible because the said deity themselves would have had to have been created.

Aaron

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To this day I have yet to see why people grasp time in a spatial sense. It's nothing more than a manner for apprehending sequences of events. To say that time existed before existence is outrageous. People seem to forget that and place time within the baseless boundaries of numbers themselves.

Furthermore, to say that a dimension (which is a axis of existence in space) set space into motion just seems a little folly to me. It's a bit like claiming i'm my own father? :P


Last Edit: Jul 28, 2008 13:36:19 GMT by Aaron

Andrew McGivery

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Josh you just said that a deity can't exist forever, but a "dimension" known as time can.

There has to be a beginning somewhere. And the beginning has to have some reason for becoming a cause and creating an effect.
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Josh

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There has to be no beginning or ending. Just like there is no beginning or end to numbers. Time always has been there. The ability to measure it (or count numbers) has not. Time is not a physical presence as a deity would have to be.

Andrew McGivery

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But still what you are saying contradicts your first statement.

But something had to have created everything.

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